Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Greg J on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:14 am

windwalker wrote:
A lot has been mentioned of somehow using a bag or other inanimate object to improve one's “tingjin” listening skills.
The only thing one can listen to is ones' self using this method.



Doesn't "listening" just means feeling/ being aware of your opponent's (in this case, the heavy bag's) movements?
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby windwalker on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:53 am

Not in this sense . if one has waited to feel the bag directly to move, using this on a person it would already be too late.

There are some things one can train using a bag "tingjin" is not one of them.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:46 pm

windwalker wrote:Not in this sense . if one has waited to feel the bag directly to move, using this on a person it would already be too late.
There are some things one can train using a bag "tingjin" is not one of them.


+1 :)
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby BruceP on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:05 pm

Lift, carry, run. Handing it off and playing catch with two or more people. Wrestle over it with others for possession, protection, control.

We also add hitting to the wrestling where you're only allowed to hit the bag however you want and as hard as you want. It helps jar the other person's grip/hold and attack their balance. A medicine ball works for that kind of bagwork as well. It's a great way to play with intent and learn to use it indirectly.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby klonk on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:09 pm

To sense movement before it occurs would be prescience or clairvoyance. Surely you are not saying that.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:29 pm

No doubt one can't learn tingjin from a bag, but the same is true for hitting sand, brick, or wood, or standing for a long time, or doing a form. It takes "four hands" to learn tcc, at a minimum. However, I don't recall anyone mentioning tingjin as the object of heavy bag training.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby zrm on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:44 pm

klonk wrote:To sense movement before it occurs would be prescience or clairvoyance. Surely you are not saying that.


Not sure what others were referring to but people will often have make involuntary subtle muscle movements unconsciously when they think about making a movement but before they consciously decide to move. If you "listen" carefully you can respond to this movement. When viewed by an outside observer it will be obvious that you are simply reacting to the subtle muscle movements that the opponent is making. However from the opponents point of view it will sometimes appear as if you have somehow managed to react to their move before they have actually started their move, giving the illusion of prescience. Obviously you can't learn this skill on a bag because a bag doesn't think about moving.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:16 pm

Hitting inanimate objects such as a bag certainly has its place in traditional CMA training, but like windtalker has pointed out, it does not develop the type of sensitivity and connection skills that are paramount in higher-level CMA. Those qualities, IMO, are what set CMA apart from non-Asian fighting arts such as boxing.

Boxers can practice their punches, footwork, timing, and positioning on a heavy bag effectively because boxing is an art that only connects with the opponent for a fraction of a second when a punch is landed. After a punch is completed, it is retracted before another one is thrown -- like a hammer hitting a nail repeatedly. Striking a heavy bag that moves upon impact, therefore, already adequately simulates the reaction and "feel" of an opponent in fighting.

In CMA fighting, we seek to bridge, connect, and control the opponent at all times while combining striking with grappling. The attributes required to execute those techniques effectively need to be trained on a live partner who responds to your actions. And that is something bag training simply can not achieve.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:00 pm

C.J.W. wrote:Hitting inanimate objects such as a bag certainly has its place in traditional CMA training, but like windtalker has pointed out, it does not develop the type of sensitivity and connection skills that are paramount in higher-level CMA. Those qualities, IMO, are what set CMA apart from non-Asian fighting arts such as boxing.

Combat sports fighters (i.e., boxing, MMA, muay thai, kick boxing, sambo) do not develop sensitivity and connection skills by only using the heavy bag. Sensitivity and connection skills are also developed by trainers feeding attacks with focus pads & body pads, partner drills, technical sparring, sparring, etc.

High level combat fighters can control their opponents from a distance by their footwork, feints, positioning, controlling the distance, etc. Of course they also trap hands, stick, control, underhook, tie up hands and grapple, too.

When working solo on the heavy bag, a form (i.e.,tai chi), or shadow boxing as if facing an opponent, you’re developing neural pathways to be aware (sensitive) in the moment for reactions and changes of an imaginary opponent, then taking advantage of, controlling and finishing him.

Hitting the heavy bag mindlessly with heavy punches is not developing these neural pathways. Also, it can train a bad habit of not being defensively responsible (dropping hands, not moving or creating distance after or during a combination, etc.) That's why Jeff Mayweather says, at times, the heavy bag should be worked, as if facing an opponent.

By practicing "Grasp the Sparrow's Tail" as in my posted video, you are developing the neural pathways to be alert to an opponent's changes, stick, follow and finish an opponent in one movement, even though one is practicing alone.

C.J.W. wrote:Boxers can practice their punches, footwork, timing, and positioning on a heavy bag effectively because boxing is an art that only connects with the opponent for a fraction of a second when a punch is landed. After a punch is completed, it is retracted before another one is thrown -- like a hammer hitting a nail repeatedly. Striking a heavy bag that moves upon impact, therefore, already adequately simulates the reaction and "feel" of an opponent in fighting.

By it's own rules (no grappling), boxing is limited to connection time between opponents. However, boxers do use hand traps, head control (leave punch out, control head and punch) and clinching.

Heavy bag use is not limited to boxing. Heavy bags are used by by most if not all of the top ranked combat sport fighters in MMA, muay thai, kick boxing, and sambo. However, it is not the only type of training they do.

C.J.W. wrote:In CMA fighting, we seek to bridge, connect, and control the opponent at all times while combining striking with grappling. The attributes required to execute those techniques effectively need to be trained on a live partner who responds to your actions. And that is something bag training simply can not achieve.

A fight (competition or street), many times, is fast paced and there is limited time to bridge, connect and control, among the barrages of kick (low or high) and punches. Connection with an opponent, usually last seconds, unless in the grappling range. When you get into a grappling range, throws, clinching, thai plum and wrestling can come into play.

Here's a couple wing chun competitions, where the fighters seem not to have "sensitivity and connection skills that are paramount in higher-level CMA:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0jOSTFF9VU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlaRMGGa-Pc&t=68s

marvin8 wrote:As far as using Peng (expansion energy) at one point of contact, do you have any video of a non-cooperative opponent, even one with weaker Peng-jin, being "repelled or bounced backwards" in a fight. Personally, I have never seen that out of all the videos I've watched of fights, push hands competitions, masters, etc.

C.J.W. wrote:The Taiji applications I've been exposed to deal with incoming attacks using soft spirals and sticking, which are supported by peng-jin.

When I mentioned people being bounced backward and repelled upon contact, I wasn't talking about the type of fake, exaggerated responses that we see in many silly "Taiji master" videos. I was referring to the natural reactions of someone when they make physical contact with a trained individual who possesses stronger peng-jin.

Just to illustrate my point, here's an example of what I meant -- starting at around 3:45.


Respectfully, I was asking if there is a video of those skills being used in a fight (competition or street). The video you posted is a demonstration, under demonstration rules. The moves Dan is using looks similar to what Yiquan practices, although different. However, the Yiquan fights that I have seen do not display these unbalancing and controlling skills.

I'm aware of the concepts of spirals, dantien rotation, peng, lu, ji, an all at the same time, etc. However, out of all of the fight videos of teachers and all their students in the lineage, I have never seen those particular, higher level sensitivity and connection skills performed.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby wiesiek on Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:01 am

It may appear / higher level sensitivity and connection skills performed./, when meaningful difference in the skills levels is present.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:53 am

Marvin,

Judging by your past posts and responses, it's quite obvious that you have doubts on your mind regarding the effectiveness of CMA and IMA, and have been analyzing them from the perspective of a modern athlete/fighter. I'd also venture to say that you have most likely never met any CMA, espeically IMA, practitioners who can apply their arts in a live format involving resistance or a fight.

My advice would be to invest some money and attend a seminar by one of the well-known IMA teachers (e.g., He Jinbao, Luo Dexiu, Dan Harden, Ark, Sam Chin, etc) who really know what they are doing. Learn about their methods and feel their powers. And -- better yet -- if you are still not convinced, ask for a friendly round of sparring with them or their senior students and see what happens.

Once you've done that, come back here and we can start having some much more meaningful discussions.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:28 am

C.J.W. wrote:Marvin,

Judging by your past posts and responses, it's quite obvious that you have doubts on your mind regarding the effectiveness of CMA and IMA, and have been analyzing them from the perspective of a modern athlete/fighter. I'd also venture to say that you have most likely never met any CMA, espeically IMA, practitioners who can apply their arts in a live format involving resistance or a fight.

You are misrepresenting what I believe and said. In fact, I stated the opposite, that practicing the tai chi form is effective in that:
marvin8 wrote:By practicing "Grasp the Sparrow's Tail" as in my posted video, you are developing the neural pathways to be alert to an opponent's changes, stick, follow and finish an opponent in one movement, even though one is practicing alone.

IMA and CMA have good fighters. Just the same, other countries have effective martial arts, as well.

C.J.W. wrote:. . . it does not develop the type of sensitivity and connection skills that are paramount in higher-level CMA. Those qualities, IMO, are what set CMA apart from non-Asian fighting arts such as boxing.

I believe you have a misunderstanding. Non-asian arts also train sensitivity, connection and control with the methods I posted, whether different or not.

I believe He Jinbao, Luo Dexiu, Dan Harden, Ark, Sam Chin have good knowledge to offer.

C.J.W. wrote:My understanding of Peng is that it is an energy -- or jin -- that should be present at all times in your body as opposed to a fixed external movement. When done correctly, someone with no or weaker Peng-jin should be repelled or bounced backward when coming into contact with your body. That why I think of Peng-jin more as "what you are" rather than "what you do.

I simply asked if you had a fight video that showed the application of what you're describing, "When done correctly, someone with no or weaker Peng-jin should be repelled or bounced backward when coming into contact with your body." I believe Stuart Shaw and Gary Gee were trying to show what they believed to be realistic applications of peng and lu.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:45 am

marvin8 wrote:
By practicing "Grasp the Sparrow's Tail" as in my posted video, you are developing the neural pathways to be alert to an opponent's changes, stick, follow and finish an opponent in one movement, even though one is practicing alone.


No, this is not what the practice is for nor what it does.

Which as CJW noted is kind of the problem.
You'er attributing things based on a perspective you've
yet to experience judging by your post.

As to the rest, again no. which would be apparent with experience.

I never quite understand why some try to equate it to other arts or practices,
suggesting its just a higher level of the same things in use.

It's not.

It's a very different idea based on a different outlook
Whether its better or not depends on the end user.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:07 pm

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
By practicing "Grasp the Sparrow's Tail" as in my posted video, you are developing the neural pathways to be alert to an opponent's changes, stick, follow and finish an opponent in one movement, even though one is practicing alone.


No, this is not what the practice is for nor what it does.

Any repetitive movement practiced for a long time will develop neural pathways, making the movement more familiar to oneself. Can you explain why you think it doesn't? I did not say that is the sole purpose.

windwalker wrote:Which as CJW noted is kind of the problem.
You'er attributing things based on a perspective you've
yet to experience judging by your post.

As to the rest, again no. which would be apparent with experience.

I never quite understand why some try to equate it to other arts or practices,
suggesting its just a higher level of the same things in use.

It's not.

C.J.W. wrote:. . . sensitivity and connection skills that are paramount in higher-level CMA. Those qualities, IMO, are what set CMA apart from non-Asian fighting arts such as boxing.

You're misrepresenting. I did not attribute nor equate. I explained that other martial arts train sensitivity, connection and control, however different:
marvin8 wrote:Non-asian arts also train sensitivity, connection and control with the methods I posted, whether different or not.

On the other hand, you keep posting that it's different, without an explanation. Can you explain what you mean, when applied to a real fight (competition or street)? Other than, attend a seminar or cma school. :)

C.J.W. said Stuart Shaw and Gary Gee were not performing peng per his understanding and described the difference:
C.J.W. wrote:My understanding of Peng is that it is an energy -- or jin -- that should be present at all times in your body as opposed to a fixed external movement. When done correctly, someone with no or weaker Peng-jin should be repelled or bounced backward when coming into contact with your body. That why I think of Peng-jin more as "what you are" rather than "what you do.

I am aware of that definition, as well. Also, I posted a video of a teacher demonstrating that type of Peng-jin. I only asked if he had a video showing this difference being applied in a fight (competition or street), not demo. As all the IMA and CMA fight videos I have seen, didn't show this quality.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby windwalker on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:55 pm

I see no point in sharing or suggesting clips, by what measure would someone who has not felt it, trained it, or even understand it,
view it by? It would only invite more questions...

The best advice as CJW suggested would be to seek and find those with whom some feel have skill in this and are public in
displaying their skill...

luck in your journey
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