windwalker wrote:C.J.W. wrote:The heavy bag is a training apparatus borrowed from Western boxing.
Some traditional Chinese systems do include bag striking as part of power training, but the design, size[, and setup of the bag are all very style-specific and meant to serve different purposes.
(Wing Chun's wall bag, for example, is designed to test one's structure and alignment.)
I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.
They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.
It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.
We had bags hanging filled with gravel, we used slicing motions on them with our forearms
developing what we called cutting hand and cutting arm. In the beginning due to the gravel
ones arms would often bleed from the training, in time the skin and bone would toughen.
One would would be then be able to cut, and those it was used on understood what cutting
meant.
I think, you're describing hand conditioning, not fighting skills. If you are standing still, you are not developing your fighting skills (positioning, angles, timing, defense, strategy, etc.). Also, I think it goes against CMA principles, per C.J.W.:
C.J.W. wrote: If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles. With IMA in particular, many of the things we practice are the opposite of what others typically do and expect.
For instance, I personally prefer letting the bag hit ME instead of me hitting it.
In the 1929 Leitai tournament, Cao Yanhai defeated iron palm master Liu Gaosheng, by using footwork, timing and strategy. Excerpt from,
https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... ournament/:
Zhang Hongjun said “What does it mean to have gongfu? The 1929 Leitai tournament in Hangzhou is a classic example of how we should understand the term ‘gongfu’.”
In the tournament, Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it! Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “Dammit, dammit”.
Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder. Li Jinglin, the Wudang sword master, head of the Central Guoshu Institute and organiser of the 2 Leitai tournaments, once said “If I were to be knocked down, I should respect my opponent’s gongfu: we should recognise that ‘he who can knock me down has gongfu'”.
Steve James wrote:Well, boxing training using bags almost always involve a lot of foot movement and footwork. You won't see one simply standing flat footed and hitting a bag. Speed bag work is somewhat stationary. In Japan, there is makiwara training, true. Otoh, there's no board or brick breaking in boxing.
The footwork illustrates boxing's approach to hitting the heavy bag, as if it's an opponent. Combinations should include, offense, defense, setups (i.e., get opponent to react first, then throw power punch), positioning, angles, timing, footwork, strategy, etc., in hitting the heavy bag when possible. The heavy bag is also used to test structure, alignment and technique, while moving.
Here's an article that gives ideas on including defense and movement to combinations,
Johnny’s Punching Combinations List,
http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-stra ... tions-list.
Of course, one could add kicking and other IMA or CMA techniques to your combinations. IMO, this would be more in line with IMA fighting strategy principles, than standing still and punching and/or kicking a bag. Transitioning from defense to offense, as one movement, is an important skill, as is using peng, lu, ji, an.