the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Depends on the bag but for striking I like adding the 7+ stars vs boxers work out. Adding in elbows, knees, shoulder, hips etc. I like the bananna bags especially heavy ones 50kg+ as they allow for front stomp, side and low shin kicks. Can even add simulation of double legs and other take downs.

Striking varies between short sharp fast and long heavy deep. Once the bag moves then it gets interesting because this is where practise moves to:

- footwork
- bracing

The back swing of the bag provides the opportunity to dodge and move around as well as weaving, swaying, ducking (these work well for the boxers half bag but the preferred but hard to find bag is the wrecking ball). It creates opportunities to do combos like ducking with low straight that move to overhands, forearms & other angles. The goal is not to be touched by the bag but change its trajectory.

Bracing involves lifting the bag out of the rest angle and keeping it there with different body parts while striking. It builds grounding and is great for in-fighting. Some moves includes things like head cover and crash, shoulder or head push, elbow points etc.

One rig I have heard about but I have never seen was attributed to guo yun shen & involved 4 heavy bags of 60kg+ each sitting in the 4 directions. The goal is to have all 4 bags moving freely. Old school IMA has some interesting training methods.

grzegorz wrote:Back in Taiwan was the heavy bag commonly used?

Or were other things used?

The heavy bag training was not popular in Taiwan. The iron palm training bag was more popular.

The heavy bag is a training apparatus borrowed from Western boxing.

Some traditional Chinese systems do include bag striking as part of power training, but the design, size, and setup of the bag are all very style-specific and meant to serve different purposes.
(Wing Chun's wall bag, for example, is designed to test one's structure and alignment.)

Well, boxing training using bags almost always involve a lot of foot movement and footwork. You won't see one simply standing flat footed and hitting a bag. Speed bag work is somewhat stationary. In Japan, there is makiwara training, true. Otoh, there's no board or brick breaking in boxing.

C.J.W. wrote:The heavy bag is a training apparatus borrowed from Western boxing.

Some traditional Chinese systems do include bag striking as part of power training, but the design, size, and setup of the bag are all very style-specific and meant to serve different purposes.
(Wing Chun's wall bag, for example, is designed to test one's structure and alignment.)

I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.

They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.

It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.

We had bags hanging filled with gravel, we used slicing motions on them with our forearms
developing what we called cutting hand and cutting arm. In the beginning due to the gravel
ones arms would often bleed from the training, in time the skin and bone would toughen.

One would would be then be able to cut, and those it was used on understood what cutting
meant.

windwalker wrote:

C.J.W. wrote:The heavy bag is a training apparatus borrowed from Western boxing.

Some traditional Chinese systems do include bag striking as part of power training, but the design, size[, and setup of the bag are all very style-specific and meant to serve different purposes.
(Wing Chun's wall bag, for example, is designed to test one's structure and alignment.)

I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.

They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.

It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.

We had bags hanging filled with gravel, we used slicing motions on them with our forearms
developing what we called cutting hand and cutting arm. In the beginning due to the gravel
ones arms would often bleed from the training, in time the skin and bone would toughen.

One would would be then be able to cut, and those it was used on understood what cutting
meant.

I think, you're describing hand conditioning, not fighting skills. If you are standing still, you are not developing your fighting skills (positioning, angles, timing, defense, strategy, etc.). Also, I think it goes against CMA principles, per C.J.W.:

C.J.W. wrote:
If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles. With IMA in particular, many of the things we practice are the opposite of what others typically do and expect.

For instance, I personally prefer letting the bag hit ME instead of me hitting it.

In the 1929 Leitai tournament, Cao Yanhai defeated iron palm master Liu Gaosheng, by using footwork, timing and strategy. Excerpt from, https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... ournament/:

Zhang Hongjun said “What does it mean to have gongfu? The 1929 Leitai tournament in Hangzhou is a classic example of how we should understand the term ‘gongfu’.”

In the tournament, Cao Yanhai (a student of the Central Guoshu Institute who eventually placed fourth) met the iron palm master Liu Gaosheng. Liu Gaosheng was famous in Shanghai for his mastery of iron palm and Ziranmen (Natural Gate); he was the head trainer of security guards for Shanghai’s 4 largest department stores and had close to 3,000 students, and was one of the favourites to win the tournament. Liu was not only a master of iron palm, he was also adept at hard qigong. Meeting such a tough opponent in the first round put Cao under pressure. At the beginning of the bout, Liu immediately launched a palm strike at Cao. Cao took the strike, thinking to gauge Liu’s power, only to find that half his body went numb – he could barely withstand it! Fortunately,Cao was calm under pressure and didn’t crumble. He took a deep breath, shook himself and hurriedly changed his tactics. Instead of taking Liu on head-on, Cao evaded as much as possible, trying to use sweeps and low kicks to attack Liu’s legs. This tactic helped Cao to go on the offensive. In the second round, Cao saw his opportunity and laid Liu out with a punch, winning the match. The next day, Zhao asked Liu how he could have lost: Liu was so vexed he punched the ground, breaking a brick in half, saying “Dammit, dammit”.

Purely from looking at the results, Liu Gaosheng’s gongfu was no match for Cao Yanhai; but Cao Yanhai could not split a brick – how can we explain this result? The reason is, Cao Yanhai often sparred, so he was good at adapting his tactics. Liu, on the other hand, rarely fought: day-to-day practice only involved testing his palm strikes, which of course most normal people could not withstand. In the bout, even though Liu’s palm strikes were devastatingly powerful, he could not hit Cao, instead being knocked down. Thus, one should not mistake hard qigong for combat skill. In a real encounter, the winner will be he who reacts faster, hits harder. Li Jinglin, the Wudang sword master, head of the Central Guoshu Institute and organiser of the 2 Leitai tournaments, once said “If I were to be knocked down, I should respect my opponent’s gongfu: we should recognise that ‘he who can knock me down has gongfu'”.

Steve James wrote:Well, boxing training using bags almost always involve a lot of foot movement and footwork. You won't see one simply standing flat footed and hitting a bag. Speed bag work is somewhat stationary. In Japan, there is makiwara training, true. Otoh, there's no board or brick breaking in boxing.

The footwork illustrates boxing's approach to hitting the heavy bag, as if it's an opponent. Combinations should include, offense, defense, setups (i.e., get opponent to react first, then throw power punch), positioning, angles, timing, footwork, strategy, etc., in hitting the heavy bag when possible. The heavy bag is also used to test structure, alignment and technique, while moving.

Here's an article that gives ideas on including defense and movement to combinations, Johnny’s Punching Combinations List, http://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-stra ... tions-list.

Of course, one could add kicking and other IMA or CMA techniques to your combinations. IMO, this would be more in line with IMA fighting strategy principles, than standing still and punching and/or kicking a bag. Transitioning from defense to offense, as one movement, is an important skill, as is using peng, lu, ji, an.

Starting at 1:40, some example from yi quan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX3J26JrLAs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_SyPf0QhxQ

Mike's bag workout. This bag is not particularly heavy, though.

I think, you're describing hand conditioning, not fighting skills. If you are standing still, you are not developing your fighting skills (positioning, angles, timing, defense, strategy, etc.). Also, I think it goes against CMA principles, per C.J.W.:

they both develop a skill, how this skill is used "fighting" depends on
principles and strategies of the style or method.

CMA has very distinct foot work sometimes practiced on stumps "plum flower" which is also very different then the methods and practices of
boxing..What CJW said as I read it and agree with, is that certain practices will tend to change the way something is practiced and can be counter to its original intent.

Its different, proceed with caution.

windwalker wrote:I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.

They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.

It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.

In your own logic, before saying it's "different," based on different ideas, isn’t it better to have an accurate understanding of western ideas, too? A more fruitful discussion can be had from the beginning, with a more accurate understanding of both perspectives.

C.J.W. misrepresented the western idea of working the heavy bag:

C.J.W. wrote:If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles.

The western idea is not to just “whack the heck out of” the heavy bag. From 35:14 to 46:45, Jeff Mayweather explains the purpose of and how to work the heavy bag.

@ 44:07 Jeff says,

The heavy bag is not just for throwing punches. Just throwing hard powerful punches is not what the heavy bag is for. The heavy bag is for actually simulating boxing as close as you can. In every aspect, with every move, every punch that's delivered, you’re trying your best in your own mind to simulate boxing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPtLB4_79w4&t=44m7s

In your own logic, before saying it's "different," based on different ideas, isn’t it better to have an accurate understanding of western ideas, too? A more fruitful discussion can be had from the beginning, with a more accurate understanding of both perspectives.

wouldn't it be better to consider that some might know and are speaking from experience.
Worked with many boxers in my time, one of the gyms I trained in was preparing one of the teachers for a full contact match back in the 70s,
I am well aware of their training methods and reasoning .

Its different.

If you feel its not I would suggest following your own
advice and find out why by joining a traditional CMA gym.

marvin8 wrote:

windwalker wrote:
I think its hard to talk about “bag” work with those who have not cultivated the skill sets from a CMA perspective.

They will always end up comparing it and thinking that what is done is equal to or amounts to the same type of training done for the same reasons by western sports.

It's not, it's different done for reasons based on a different set of ideas.

We had bags hanging filled with gravel, we used slicing motions on them with our forearms
developing what we called cutting hand and cutting arm. In the beginning due to the gravel
ones arms would often bleed from the training, in time the skin and bone would toughen.

One would would be then be able to cut, and those it was used on understood what cutting
meant.

I think, you're describing hand conditioning, not fighting skills. If you are standing still, you are not developing your fighting skills (positioning, angles, timing, defense, strategy, etc.). Also, I think it goes against CMA principles, per C.J.W.:

You can strike at your opponent's guard from a fixed position. There are a lot of methods to attack the striking arms or when they are guarding. This is an attacking, striking method you can develop on bags. Here I see not much difference from using a bag to practice other kind of striking power.

A bag is not very useful for practicing "positioning, angles, timing, defense,".

Transitioning from defense to offense, as one movement, is an important skill, as is using peng, lu, ji, an.

I have no idea how to practice peng, lu, ji and an on a bag. Maybe someone could teach me? ...

....

I prefer working with a partner holding a sturdy kicking protection, someone that can judge and comment on what he feel that you are strong or weak. The thing is that if you work with IMA, you sometimes work with quite different mechanics than many other arts. We work with coordination and posture in a very detailed way. You can't just "try to hit harder". You need to learn how to coordinate all small details while remembering "song" and supporting the body correctly on impact. But sometimes we forget small details on posture, movement and transition. It's hard to judge yourself when working alone, you can get stuck from messing up details or food yourself that you do it better than you do. But he will feel very clearly when everything works or when something is wrong. Together you can help each other figure out problems, how to do things even better etc.

Patrick wrote:Starting at 1:40, some example from yi quan.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_RcAr8Qi1s

Hmm... How can I comment this without being disrespectful? If you practice to just tap the surface, why work against a bag? Wrapping together a couple of towels and put against a wall should be sufficient and it cost nothing. Or even better buy a flyswatter if that is the purpose with that kind of gentle tapping.

But I do appreciate bag work for power practice, learning how to really penetrate the bag, getting better on how to create some real damage, i.e. finishing methods. But practicing "combos" is something I have hard to see any use of from an IMA perspective. In IMA, you work mostly from contact and any combo starts from first taking any kind of contact. I have a feeling that many people have a boxing or a general sparring mind set where you close in from distance by the use of different strikes and kicks in combination. Closing in by reaching for contact can also be a matter of striking and kicking, sure. But the main goal should IMO still be not striking for the sake of striking, but then instead striking reaching for contact for control, qinna, takedowns, throws and set ups for finishing methods.
... Hope that all of this made sense ... I am not against bag work, but against disregarding the genuine strategy and tactics these systems were built for.

windwalker wrote:wouldn't it be better to consider that some might know and are speaking from experience.
Worked with many boxers in my time, one of the gyms I trained in was preparing one of the teachers for a full contact match back in the 70s,
I am well aware of their training methods and reasoning .

Its different.

If you feel its not I would suggest following your own
advice and find out why by joining a traditional CMA gym.

Based on C.J.W.'s direct quote, it showed a possible lack of understanding or misrepresentation from him:

marvin8 wrote:C.J.W. misrepresented the western idea of working the heavy bag:

C.J.W. wrote:If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles.

I tried to give a more complete description of western heavy bag combinations, by using an article, video and my own understanding. I didn't comment on whether it's the same or different from CMA.

It may add to the discussion, if one wants to explain the principles and strategies of the Yi quan heavy bag video, rather than just say it's "different" or join your local CMA school.

grzegorz wrote:A short brief one with a dude who looks like me, which is why I am sharing it.



And Val's ballistic striking.



I am sure there are CMA people doing sort of thing but I am not so sure it is being taught to the general public and on a heavy bag.

As a direct result of this discussion I have been re-focussing on the "sound."

They discuss it in the above videos and in somewhere around 15 in Val's.

Bao wrote:You can strike at your opponent's guard from a fixed position. There are a lot of methods to attack the striking arms or when they are guarding. This is an attacking, striking method you can develop on bags. Here I see not much difference from using a bag to practice other kind of striking power.

I agree. Any bag can be used for conditioning and building power. However per C.J.W., just punching a bag aggressively has little to do with CMA principle:

C.J.W. wrote:
If all you do is whack the heck out of it like an average boxer or a kickboxer and try to apply that same primal aggression in fighting, then IMO, it has little to do with CMA and runs counter to its principles. With IMA in particular, many of the things we practice are the opposite of what others typically do and expect.

For instance, I personally prefer letting the bag hit ME instead of me hitting it.

Bao wrote: A bag is not very useful for practicing "positioning, angles, timing, defense,".

Some people do not have a variety of bags (i.e, speed bag, double end bag, banana bag, wrecking ball bag, aqua bag, reflex bag), partners or coaches to work pads. So, working these skills on the heavy bag, can be useful.

Trainer, Jeff Mayweather, believes the heavy bag should be used to practice those skills and working the heavy bag as if it's an opponent, in the video I posted. Jeff says,

The heavy bag is not just for throwing punches. Just throwing hard powerful punches is not what the heavy bag is for. The heavy bag is for actually simulating boxing as close as you can. In every aspect, with every move, every punch that's delivered, you’re trying your best in your own mind to simulate boxing.

The videos posted of Mike Tyson and Jeff Mayweather show them training positioning, angles, timing, defense, etc. It may be hard to notice because movements can be small (i.e., evading within inches, head movement, pivot, step back, stick and move, etc.).

Bao wrote:

marvin8 wrote:Transitioning from defense to offense, as one movement, is an important skill, as is using peng, lu, ji, an.

Bao wrote:I have no idea how to practice peng, lu, ji and an on a bag. Maybe someone could teach me? ...

I was speaking more of the concept of practicing defense and offense as one move. Not practicing peng, lu, ji, an on the heavy bag.

Here’s a video of Stuart Shaw drilling peng and lu, which I assume can be practiced on the heavy bag with some creativeness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLjHHBkf1DE

Bao wrote:I prefer working with a partner holding a sturdy kicking protection, someone that can judge and comment on what he feel that you are strong or weak. The thing is that if you work with IMA, you sometimes work with quite different mechanics than many other arts. We work with coordination and posture in a very detailed way. You can't just "try to hit harder". You need to learn how to coordinate all small details while remembering "song" and supporting the body correctly on impact. But sometimes we forget small details on posture, movement and transition. It's hard to judge yourself when working alone, you can get stuck from messing up details or food yourself that you do it better than you do. But he will feel very clearly when everything works or when something is wrong. Together you can help each other figure out problems, how to do things even better etc.

I agree. However, I was trying to limit my response to the topic of heavy bag combinations.