The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:38 am

Yeung wrote:Please validate the followings:
Genesis 24:63
HEB: וַיֵּצֵ֥א יִצְחָ֛ק לָשׂ֥וּחַ בַּשָּׂדֶ֖ה לִפְנ֣וֹת
NAS: went out to meditate in the field
KJV: went out to meditate in the field
INT: went Isaac to meditate the field toward
24:63 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
וַיֵּצֵ֥א יִצְחָ֛ק לָשׂ֥וּחַ בַּשָּׂדֶ֖ה לִפְנֹ֣ות עָ֑רֶב וַיִּשָּׂ֤א עֵינָיו֙ וַיַּ֔רְא וְהִנֵּ֥ה גְמַלִּ֖ים בָּאִֽים׃
בראשית 24:63 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויצא יצחק לשוח בשדה לפנות ערב וישא עיניו וירא והנה גמלים באים׃


Again, NO. In this context, biblical Hebrew only, the verse simply means Isaac went to ROAM in the field (not to 'meditate'). In this context the verb is different, too, although it sounds the same. You have the word 'Si'ah', meaning both 'Bush' (in nature) and 'Conversation'. The verb Lasuah is taken from that root. When Lasuah is in the context of people speaking, it means 'Conversation'. When Lasuah is in the context of someone being in nature, it means 'to roam about' (in Nature). It can also be used as 'Sah Elei...' (went to...). Again, all of these uses are somewhat anachronistic, high-Hebrew.

Yeung wrote:Another reference to Jewish Meditation:

Psalm of David 979 BC
wə·heḡ·yō·wn
Psalm 19:14
HEB: אִמְרֵי־ פִ֡י וְהֶגְי֣וֹן לִבִּ֣י לְפָנֶ֑יךָ
NAS: of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
KJV: of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart,
INT: the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart your sight


No, no and some more NO.

The word 'Higayon' means Logic, not 'meditation'. 'The logic of my heart' is a poetic Hebrew way of saying "my gut feeling" or "my innermost understanding" or "my personal logic" or "what moves me". The verse means something like: "The words which I utter from my mouth and the logic of my heart are (laid down) before you".
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:46 am

Thanks, Hebrew word for meditation:
מֶדִיטָצִיָה
And this word is not find in the Old Testament.

The English word meditation is derived from the Latin meditatio, from a verb meditari, meaning "to think, contemplate, devise, ponder" and it is irrelevant to Zhan Zhuang.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:52 am

Yeung wrote:Daoyin Tu dated back to 168 BC:

http://yang-sheng.com/wp-content/upload ... -chart.png

The term Daoyin means directing and stretching (leading and pulling) and that can be traced back to Zhuangzi.


Looks like Daoyin Tu with 44 postures is the only source for Zhan Zhuang with the internal action of stretch to eight sides.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Steve James on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:42 pm

Well, first off, whatever the exercise, unless it was a scholar who "invented" it, there's probably no way to attribute it to a particular person, except in theory. It's like folklore, or finding out who made the first bow or found a way to make fire. So, although the various standing practices may vary, their common ancestors are mythological. It's like attributing the origin of tcc to Chang San Feng. From the folkloric pov (i.e., oral transmission) in Chinese culture, there had to be someone who decided to do standing exercises in order to accomplish something (physical, mental, and/or spiritual). The connection of intent to the actual exercise is key, and it's what probably differentiates one system's practice from another. If the Shaolin intent behind standing was/is the same as that of Chen stylists today, it's more than likely that they share a common ancestor. (No, not talking about Bodhidharma either).
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby yeniseri on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:49 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, first off, whatever the exercise, unless it was a scholar who "invented" it, there's probably no way to attribute it to a particular person, except in theory. It's like folklore, or finding out who made the first bow or found a way to make fire. So, although the various standing practices may vary, their common ancestors are mythological. It's like attributing the origin of tcc to Chang San Feng. From the folkloric pov (i.e., oral transmission) in Chinese culture, there had to be someone who decided to do standing exercises in order to accomplish something (physical, mental, and/or spiritual). The connection of intent to the actual exercise is key, and it's what probably differentiates one system's practice from another. If the Shaolin intent behind standing was/is the same as that of Chen stylists today, it's more than likely that they share a common ancestor. (No, not talking about Bodhidharma either).


My limited reading and understanding would indicate that some shaman, common riffraff actually created 'stuff" then it was overtaken by the johnny come latelys and formulated into common folk parlance for all to regurgitate. I see this with what is traditional CMA where it was the work of the street peddlers, carpenters, and village folk people, etc until the Confucian elitists dressed it up, packaged it and then it would become unintelligible to the rest of the observed sympathizers. It was the landowners, the examtakers, etc who hired the pugilists because the latter would not 'dirty their hands' with menial tasks................ ??? Just a side bar as I sense the villages did n=most of the work until some big named guvnor saw the skill and wanted to acquire it by sending his sons to learn both sides of the coin.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:39 am

Since the archaeological finding of the Daoyin Tu dated back to the pre-Qin period, and the writing of Zhuangzi described Daoyin as a kind of breathing in and out and imitating a bear and bird, etc., most people believe that they contribute to the later development of five animal play by Hua Tu (145-208). The connection between exercise and meridians were suggested in the 5 element fist form of Xingyiquan. And that can be demonstrated by generating impacts on the Yin meridians and the relevant organs in the form. But it is difficult to work out the developmental process. Connecting its development to Yi Jin Jing is a good suggestion but evidences suggested that it was developed in 1624 using the name of Bodhidharma.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:06 am

klonk wrote:
Yeung wrote:In Wang Xiangzhai’s own words, he is a relative of Guo Yuanshen and this was how he can learn from him. And he developed the Hunyuan Zhuang from the various Zhuang that he learned:

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... of-yiquan/


Thank you for the link! I'd previously read this in an English translation done by a good chap whose native tongue is neither English nor Chinese and not related to either. :) I'm having an easier time of it, this time.


Paul Brennan provided notes in his translation with reference to the Taijiquan classics but there are issues that might be difficult such as:

兩腿用提挾扒縮蹚崩擰裹勁
Your legs use the energies of lifting and squeezing, raking and withdrawing, digging and collapsing, twisting and wrapping.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:20 am

Yeung wrote:Connecting its development to Yi Jin Jing is a good suggestion but evidences suggested that it was developed in 1624 using the name of Bodhidharma.


The Yijinjing and also the Baduanjin are probably 19th or as earliest maybe late 18th century inventions.

https://books.google.se/books?id=AtoDAA ... &q&f=false
Check the article on p 28. Nothing new have been discovered after the source mentioned here.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:37 am

The version of Yi Jin Jing know to us is written by the Taoist Zi Ning of Tian Tai County, Taizhou, Zhejiang Province in 1624 with the name Da Mo, and was adopted by the Shaolin Temple. So it is possible that the founder of Xinyiluhe started with this version.

http://img01.cztv.com/201606/13/3ad98a0 ... bf78be.jpg
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby jjy5016 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:29 am

My understanding as far as yiquan is concerned, is that hun yuan is more of a theory/method than an actual posture. Hun yuan in this context relates to the Chinese mythological theory of how the universe came about through an explosion, the aftermath of which resulted in matter spiraling out in all directions and becoming stars, planets etc. thereby creating the galaxies. This hun yuan theory is transmuted into the basic standing postures, shi li and walking exercises for stretching and strengthening the tendons and manifested in the fa li exercises.

That picture of Wang with his arms held out in the low embracing the tree posture with his head back and big old grin on his face was a joke. In that picture he was saying that it didn't matter what posture one stood in once he was at a certain level. For a novice standing like that would be called "standing like a fool" because one wouldn't have a clue.

If one is in the correct frame of mind any posture can be considered hun yuan or wuji for that matter.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby robert on Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:11 pm

Traditionally standing meditation goes back to the Buddha. See the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta.

"2. The Postures of the Body
And further, monks, a monk knows, when he is going, “I am going”; he knows, when he is
standing, “I am standing”; he knows, when he is sitting, “I am sitting”; he knows, when he
is lying down, “I am lying down”; or just as his body is disposed so he knows it."

going = walking.

In Buddhism all these postures - walking, standing, sitting, and laying down can be used for meditation.

Historically texts in the Buddhist canon have been found that are 1500 years old so this tradition is pretty old. And I'm pretty sure that there is historical evidence that Buddhism is practiced in China by the start of the common era, if not earlier.

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:55 am

“Yinshu (The Pulling Book) is the earliest extant treatise on the Chinese tradition
of daoyin (guiding and pulling), dating to the second century BCE. From
Yinshu we know that the art of daoyin was not simply a therapy for illness,
but an integral part of a regimen designed to strengthen the body – a regimen
which adjusted personal hygiene, grooming, exercise, diet, sleep and sexual behaviour
to the changing qualities of the four seasons. It is one of two medical
manuscripts to be excavated from tomb 247 at the Jiangling, Zhangjiashan site
in Hubei which was excavated in 1983/4. The tomb is a rectangular vertical pit
tomb with two rooms, not grand in scale.” (Vivienne Lo, 2014)
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:41 am

In Zhuangzi, Outer Chapter, Ingrained Ideas, Paragraph 1: Zhuangzi (370-287 BC) identified the practice of Daoyin for longevity:

“Blowing and breathing with open mouth; inhaling and exhaling the breath; expelling the old breath and taking in new; passing their time like the (dormant) bear, and stretching and twisting (the neck) like a bird - all this simply shows the desire for longevity.”
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:44 am

robert wrote:Traditionally standing meditation goes back to the Buddha. See the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta.

"2. The Postures of the Body
And further, monks, a monk knows, when he is going, “I am going”; he knows, when he is
standing, “I am standing”; he knows, when he is sitting, “I am sitting”; he knows, when he
is lying down, “I am lying down”; or just as his body is disposed so he knows it."

going = walking.

In Buddhism all these postures - walking, standing, sitting, and laying down can be used for meditation.

Historically texts in the Buddhist canon have been found that are 1500 years old so this tradition is pretty old. And I'm pretty sure that there is historical evidence that Buddhism is practiced in China by the start of the common era, if not earlier.

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/howto.htm


With my limited knowledge of English, meditation has many different meanings. As it was pointed out in Hebrew that meditation is used to translate different terms in Hebrew. In any case, getting into a trance is not suitable in Zhan Zhuang. I think focus in sensations should be the aim such as stretching to all sides, transfer of weights, generating external energy, balance in flowing, etc. And there are certain technical difficulties transferring from a crossed leg posture to sitting, standing, and walking.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:34 am

jjy5016 wrote:My understanding as far as yiquan is concerned, is that hun yuan is more of a theory/method than an actual posture. Hun yuan in this context relates to the Chinese mythological theory of how the universe came about through an explosion, the aftermath of which resulted in matter spiraling out in all directions and becoming stars, planets etc. thereby creating the galaxies. This hun yuan theory is transmuted into the basic standing postures, shi li and walking exercises for stretching and strengthening the tendons and manifested in the fa li exercises.

That picture of Wang with his arms held out in the low embracing the tree posture with his head back and big old grin on his face was a joke. In that picture he was saying that it didn't matter what posture one stood in once he was at a certain level. For a novice standing like that would be called "standing like a fool" because one wouldn't have a clue.

If one is in the correct frame of mind any posture can be considered hun yuan or wuji for that matter.


I am not sure of the reference to Wuji by Wang, but in any case hun yuan and wuji are not the same.

As far as I concern, Wang was a successful experience undertaken by his teacher Guo Yun Shen in producing his exceptional strength in Xingyiquan or simply the half step of beng chui by Zhan Zhuang. Wang is closely associated with Wu Yi Hui and adopted some of his teachings to explain the generation of this exceptional strength. This is purely martial art and it is another matter when people adopted Zhan Zhuang into their occult practice is another matter.
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