The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

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The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:01 am

I have searched for the origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang and I can only traced it back to Ji Ji Ke (1602 – 1683) the founder of Xinyiluhe. It was not sure whether he developed Hun Yuan Gong or later by Gao Ji Wu (1655-?) and his student Dai Long Bang (1713-1804). Please help if you have any information on the origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang or Hun Yuan Gong.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby yeniseri on Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:47 am

Unknown but you seem to have done your due diligence!

There are certain question one asks teachers and they do not know but the closest I have come is that Hun Yuan Zhuang is a "blended" tradition that has sought to reconcile the actual practice method with modern practice. My main results have been the descriptive from Feng Zhiqiang (use of the descriptive hun yuan!) who appears to have adopted it from Hu Yaozhen who apparently picked it up from the xinhyiliuhe group somewhere in his training which happens to have intersected the emergence of Dachengquan (Wang Xiangzhai) since Guo Yunshen{g} (郭雲深) was a central figure in both camps. My dating of this is betwen 1850-1900, which is late in historical terms ??? . Probably, the secrecy motives obscures the origin but I am sure someone with village contacts can find a source to show the central figures previous to the 1600s. Hu Yaozhen would have had access to xin(g)heliuhe masters and followed a tradition that involved learning and integration with enough knowledge to influence Feng Zhiqiang direction in taijiquan (Chen)

I have seen sources that the Dachengquan's founder was a nephew of Guo Yunshen{g}
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:00 pm

Thanks, Hu Yao Zhen (1897-1973) learned Xinyiluhe from Dai Wen Jun 戴文俊 but nothing is known about him.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby edededed on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:52 am

I don't think that hunyuanzhuang is practiced in xinyiliuhequan - is there evidence that Dai Longbang or earlier folks practiced hunyuanzhuang?

I think that hunyuanzhuang was created by Wang Xiangzhai (perhaps with some influence from white crane, etc.). The practice became quite popular (and was also taught as a health qigong), so it easily spread out from there. Other styles may have had other standing methods that looked similar (high mabu posture, different hands).

Some xingyiquan lines today practice it, but I think that they probably got it from Wang Xiangzhai (or his influence). I don't think that I've ever seen Shanxi lines practice it, for example.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby yeniseri on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:07 pm

Zhuangfa pre-dates Wang Xiangzhai, Feng Zhiqiang, etc but it seems to have been picked up by these individuals and re-engineered to the present social appreciation of it.
XIngyiliuhe has a type of standing neigong (zhuangfa ??? ) that influenced the recent zhanzhuang movement but hun yuan elements does point to Guo Yunshen (amongdt others) teacher of Wang Xiangzhai, who was an adept of the xingyi/xinyi connection.
Last edited by yeniseri on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:55 pm

Zhan Zhuang is an integral part of Shaolin training and probably predates the 1700's.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Patrick on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:51 am

Could you point to sources for that? Just interested in the history.
Thank you.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Bao on Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:42 am

Patrick wrote:Could you point to sources for that? Just interested in the history.
Thank you.


You have a great liable source in the post just above you. ;)
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:17 am

I believe posture holding has long been a part of Qigong training, both for health and martial arts, that has been passed down through the millenia. Therefore, it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly where it came from.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:05 am

kenneth fish wrote:Zhan Zhuang is an integral part of Shaolin training and probably predates the 1700's.

In the old days, we were told to practice xiao nian tou小念头 for half an hour and in hong quan it was the horse stance for half an hour for beginners. The training aim is to develop strength and flexibility of the hip joints in preparation for rotating the crotch. So it is zuo ma 坐马 in the Southern Shaolin Martial Arts for beginners. Static postures are fundamental in Yi Jin Jing and that can dated back beyond the Shaolin Temple.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Tom on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:49 am

Bao wrote:
Patrick wrote:Could you point to sources for that? Just interested in the history.
Thank you.


You have a great liable source in the post just above you. ;)


Indeed, I believe Ven. Fish has been around since the 1700s.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:06 pm

Tom wrote:
Bao wrote:
Patrick wrote:Could you point to sources for that? Just interested in the history.
Thank you.


You have a great liable source in the post just above you. ;)


Indeed, I believe Ven. Fish has been around since the 1700s.


Lol! :D

Mr Fish is all too humble. Why look for book quotes or other sources when you have the possibility to learn the practical practice first hand?
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:58 am

C.J.W. wrote:I believe posture holding has long been a part of Qigong training, both for health and martial arts, that has been passed down through the millenia. Therefore, it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly where it came from.


Postures in prayer and meditation.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Strange on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:23 am

Yeung wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:I believe posture holding has long been a part of Qigong training, both for health and martial arts, that has been passed down through the millenia. Therefore, it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly where it came from.


Postures in prayer and meditation.


and your expert and/or researcher reference is...?
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:40 am

In Xing Yi Quan it was probably integrated into the art by the founder of its 'modern' form, Li Luoneng. I have not seen it taught in Dai Xin Yi or Xin Yi Liu He Quan, though in terms of the gongfu contained within they share most of the stuff, just train it differently.

Yi Quan naturally inherited it from XYQ.

In Chen shi Taiji Quan it came down form Feng Zhiqiang, who learned it from Hu Yaozhen, who taught him XYQ (some say Feng was taught XYLHQ, but I actually had one of his disciples show me the XYQ he learned from him and it was classic Hebei, including San Ti Shi training as Zhan Zhuang). Feng Zhiqiang taught Hun Yuan Zhuang to his disciples, to some folks in Chen Village (likely how Chen Xiaowang learned it), and seems to have also taught it to Chen Zhaokui.

Nowadays Hun Yuan Zhuang is all over the place. Even the local Lama Pai in my country teach it.
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