The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:28 am

In Wang Xiangzhai’s own words, he is a relative of Guo Yuanshen and this was how he can learn from him. And he developed the Hunyuan Zhuang from the various Zhuang that he learned:

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... of-yiquan/
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:45 am

Strange wrote:
Yeung wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:I believe posture holding has long been a part of Qigong training, both for health and martial arts, that has been passed down through the millenia. Therefore, it would be difficult to pinpoint exactly where it came from.


Postures in prayer and meditation.


and your expert and/or researcher reference is...?


Original Word: שׂ֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: suach
Phonetic Spelling: (soo'-akh)
Short Definition: meditate

Genesis 24:63 dated back to 2026 BC but should be written between 1446 BC and 1406 BC

Prayer posture of Solomon: 2 Chronicles 6:13b (959 BC)

Reference to Laozi and Zhuangzi: together in one embrace, fasting of the mind, sit and forget.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Strange on Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:25 pm

Wow, just wow.
it's amazing how you figured it all out by yourself;
you know how sometimes when you are in the presence of pure and raw intelligence
you are just left speechless
that's the feeling i'm getting now

please continue to share your light generously with us
so that we may all be enlightened in our studies

Until recently, i had thought that mabu came from the strengthening
effects felt from holding position over the toilet bowl

you are just pure win all the way
i feel like dropping my fly and fap
Last edited by Strange on Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby klonk on Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:50 pm

Yeung wrote:In Wang Xiangzhai’s own words, he is a relative of Guo Yuanshen and this was how he can learn from him. And he developed the Hunyuan Zhuang from the various Zhuang that he learned:

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... of-yiquan/


Thank you for the link! I'd previously read this in an English translation done by a good chap whose native tongue is neither English nor Chinese and not related to either. :) I'm having an easier time of it, this time.
Last edited by klonk on Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:28 am

Daoyin Tu dated back to 168 BC:

http://yang-sheng.com/wp-content/upload ... -chart.png

The term Daoyin means directing and stretching (leading and pulling) and that can be traced back to Zhuangzi.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:03 am

As someone mentioned: "i had thought that mabu came from the strengthening
effects felt from holding position over the toilet bowl". Actually, some schools suggested to withhold feces during the practice of mabu or zhan zhuang, and this can cause constipation.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Strange on Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:46 pm

yes, my point exactly, full of shit
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:29 am

Yeung wrote:
Original Word: שׂ֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: suach
Phonetic Spelling: (soo'-akh)
Short Definition: meditate

Genesis 24:63 dated back to 2026 BC but should be written between 1446 BC and 1406 BC

Prayer posture of Solomon: 2 Chronicles 6:13b (959 BC)

Reference to Laozi and Zhuangzi: together in one embrace, fasting of the mind, sit and forget.


No. Just... NO. This is bullshit, OK?

Listen here... I am an Israeli Jew. This is the word in the language I speak daily. I studied the Old Testament for 11 years straight. You are talking nonsense.

Lasuah (לשוח) is a high-Hebrew word meaning: To Converse. I use this word every day. Suah is the imperative form of Lasuah. Suah means: "Converse (!)", as in commanding one to conduct conversation.

There is no original Hebrew word for 'meditate'. In modern Hebrew you use the loan-word Meditatzia for 'Meditation', and when you practice meditation you say: "I practice Meditatzia".

You may be able to say that "You have conversed with God", but this is unrelated to meditation in Judaism.

So please, do not spread this falsehood. It was already bad enough when you brought forth that lie by Wang Xiangzhai, that he created Hun Yuan Zhuang.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:18 am

Please validate the followings:
Genesis 24:63
HEB: וַיֵּצֵ֥א יִצְחָ֛ק לָשׂ֥וּחַ בַּשָּׂדֶ֖ה לִפְנ֣וֹת
NAS: went out to meditate in the field
KJV: went out to meditate in the field
INT: went Isaac to meditate the field toward
24:63 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
וַיֵּצֵ֥א יִצְחָ֛ק לָשׂ֥וּחַ בַּשָּׂדֶ֖ה לִפְנֹ֣ות עָ֑רֶב וַיִּשָּׂ֤א עֵינָיו֙ וַיַּ֔רְא וְהִנֵּ֥ה גְמַלִּ֖ים בָּאִֽים׃
בראשית 24:63 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויצא יצחק לשוח בשדה לפנות ערב וישא עיניו וירא והנה גמלים באים׃
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:38 am

Another reference to Jewish Meditation:

Psalm of David 979 BC
wə·heḡ·yō·wn
Psalm 19:14
HEB: אִמְרֵי־ פִ֡י וְהֶגְי֣וֹן לִבִּ֣י לְפָנֶ֑יךָ
NAS: of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
KJV: of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart,
INT: the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart your sight
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:52 am

Photos of Wang Xiangzhai:

http://cstang.www3.50megs.com/english/g ... llery.html

Photos of Hong Sing Yuen’s 8 stand postures:

http://cstang.www3.50megs.com/english/g ... llery.html

Which Zhan Zhuang posture is the Hun Yuan Zhuang?
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby yeniseri on Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:32 pm

From my understanding (as limited as it is) Hun Yun Zhuang is a modernist interpretation of zhuagfa brought into modern parlance from an obscure past shrouded in secrecy.
As I recall from what I thought I understood from some of my teachers of the past
1. Zhuangfa's pre1700s practice was present in the xinyi/xingyi matrix of learning i.e. santishi which was synthesized from previous learning methodology
2. Shaolin had/has a mabu training stance (excessive in conditioning per damage of patella complex) while saying the adaption for yangsheng purposes allowed for adapted height and heath considerations
3. Zhi Guan methods speak of a quietness /meditation posture(s) encompassing lying down, "sitting in oblivion" posture and standing

Some of this is documented in some of the works by Livia Kohn so check out some of her works for reference. Very academic and sighted throughout her bobliographic.

In my short lessons with Chang Dungsheng, he was not into zhuangfa (at least public acknowledgement of it and he was a hsingyi/xingyi practitioner taijiquan and primary art shuaijiao), If I recall correctly he did state (through translation) that he was not a fan. Prof Hou Chi Kwang rarely mentioned it and not part of training. Lu Hunping xingyi's did not mention any relationship with zhuangfa hence my use of it (zhaugnfa) being a "modernist" bent with obscure staking added to present teaching methodology. Still positive..

Only restating my view. Since I have taught at a local acupuncture school, I try to bring up present people like Livia Kohn who actually gives a historical bent to a reality often obscured by ignorance, innuendo and downright false points of view. It also helps that students can go back to these sources and see for themselves the background of CMA in a real world matrix ;D

Livia Kohn Introduction
http://www.bu.edu/religion/people/faculty/bios/kohn/
Last edited by yeniseri on Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Strange on Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:54 pm

Yeung wrote:Please validate the followings:
Genesis 24:63
HEB: וַיֵּצֵ֥א יִצְחָ֛ק לָשׂ֥וּחַ בַּשָּׂדֶ֖ה לִפְנ֣וֹת
NAS: went out to meditate in the field
KJV: went out to meditate in the field
INT: went Isaac to meditate the field toward
24:63 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
וַיֵּצֵ֥א יִצְחָ֛ק לָשׂ֥וּחַ בַּשָּׂדֶ֖ה לִפְנֹ֣ות עָ֑רֶב וַיִּשָּׂ֤א עֵינָיו֙ וַיַּ֔רְא וְהִנֵּ֥ה גְמַלִּ֖ים בָּאִֽים׃
בראשית 24:63 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
ויצא יצחק לשוח בשדה לפנות ערב וישא עיניו וירא והנה גמלים באים׃


i can see there's really just no fooling you :D
now i understand what i have been missing in my meditation: the wailing wall!
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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Yeung on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:24 am

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Re: The origin of Hun Yuan Zhuang

Postby Strange on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:00 am

when you are full you cannot learn
when you made up your mind you cannot listen

the true internal cannot "try", cannot "reach", cannot "push yourself"
once you do it, the natural is lost
once natural is lost, it is no longer internal
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