BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby grzegorz on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:26 am

Now on Ninjitsu. I asked a Japanese man who did martial arts all of his life and even had it as his "major" throughout his schooling (different education system in Japan) and he also told me that Ninjitsu is bunk. That true ninjitsu was the art of assassination and had nothing to do with two opponents fighting each other. I admit I don't know the whole story but it seems to me from the ninjitsu I have seen that it is basically a way to market a mix of different Japanese MAs. I am not expert on JMAs but the times I have seen it or knew people who did it I did not see anything I haven't seen elsewhere in JMAs. Yet then again the same could be said about BJJ basically being judo with different rules. So it isn't a criticism as much recognizing what it actually is and if someone enjoys it then good for them.
Last edited by grzegorz on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby grzegorz on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:35 am

GrahamB wrote:100% marketing.


I agree. Originally BJJ in the US was for only the toughest and if you had no interest in MMA and competition or steroids you were in the wrong gym.

Then the decades passed and they realized it wasn't the best business model so they started focusing more on children and low and behold suddenly BJJ was all about self-defense instead of vale tudo and death metal music.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:40 am

willie wrote:
shoebox55 wrote:Thanks for the responses,.So silat, systema...any others?


Ninjutsu..
If you just want traditional, maybe it's for you?


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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby grzegorz on Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:48 pm

In this video they are almost all non-Japanese practitioners. I get the impression that this article is more popular outside of Japan? Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Last edited by grzegorz on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby shoebox55 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:22 pm

dspyrido wrote:
Once that is understood & there is an appetite to learn the ground then a simpler strategy is to learn break someones guard down vs. pulling people into the guard. No one seems to have a style called "ground and pound fu" other than it is something people do in mma and the schoolyard.


Very informative post, thank you, it brings greater focus to one's training. Would you say the main objective is to get out from a dominant grappling position and get to one's feet, while defending from strikes/weapons/etc.?
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby shoebox55 on Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:24 pm

dspyrido wrote:

But done right from a solid base + pins (aka as trapping) + strikes and it has a habit of removing many guard based submission moves.


Can you illustrate or clarify what you mean by this please
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby zrm on Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:43 pm

Ground and pound fu from Mario Sperry, who trained under Carlson Gracie.

Punching from within the guard


The standing tripod position removes threat of most guard submissions and the feet are too far away for the guy on the bottom to reach.

Setting up knee strikes from side control. Here he uses a strike to the liver to set up an arm pin which then leaves the head open for further knee strikes.
Last edited by zrm on Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby dspyrido on Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:29 am

shoebox55 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Once that is understood & there is an appetite to learn the ground then a simpler strategy is to learn break someones guard down vs. pulling people into the guard. No one seems to have a style called "ground and pound fu" other than it is something people do in mma and the schoolyard.


Very informative post, thank you, it brings greater focus to one's training. Would you say the main objective is to get out from a dominant grappling position and get to one's feet, while defending from strikes/weapons/etc.?


Here are some examples of the progression I mentioned. Let's start with stopping a take down before it happens. Plenty of examples in MMA but let's take the example of Palhares.



Once in a clinch it's not hard to hurt someone with strikes and locks but before the ground is the takedown. Universally wrestling styles (includes cma & jma) aim to end up in the top position as it represents a fight finisher.



Once on the ground & in the dominant position the choice can be get up and run away, submissions, positioning or move to ground and pound.



So if stand up fighting is a specialisation then it seems smarter to start from that position and work through infighting, counters and throws. If a person is better at throwing then they will usually end up in the dominant position. So why not then train to stay in this position vs. assuming it is necessary to spend a lot more time learning how to submit someone from a guard (which also creates a pattern of behaviour of pulling guard and other sacrificing throws).

shoebox55 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:But done right from a solid base + pins (aka as trapping) + strikes and it has a habit of removing many guard based submission moves.


Can you illustrate or clarify what you mean by this please


Being in a dominant position tends to be easier to hit someone vs. being underneath. The problem is that keeping a solid base requires training and then learning how to strike from this position means being able to keep or recover the balance quickly to avoid being sweeped or locked.

It usually starts by clearing the ties (grips) and the hooks (feet) that an opponent has. Then it is about getting a wide triangle base whether it is on the knees, feet or toes (like in the mario vids above). When in someones guard it helps to keep the head up & above the waist, curve the bows, use the structure (vs. strength) and deflect. Josh Barnett & Erik Paulson have videos on this but it is ground fighting 101.

From here pins start. Hands can be trapped and pinned, chicken winged or even pulled behind the back (see ufc 209 woodly's fight). If the guard is open then feet can be grabbed and pushed down followed by pinning with the shin or knee on the opponents leg. An elbow can dig the ribs, throat, legs, solar plexus etc. The head can be cranked and other related moves.

Opponents on the ground will try to sit up, grab arms, legs, the neck or to slide out. The dominant position means it is easy to slamming them back down, not letting them get any grips and reassert the pins.

The goal is that once in a dominant position not to let it up but to make the position harder and harder for the other guy. If striking is involved then it is also means it becomes easier and easier to hit the opponent. Even in pure submission grappling it is a bitch to deal with when underneath someone who knows how to apply weight and pins.

There is an excellent breakdown video of Josh Barnett vs. Dean Lister by Ronin Submissions but unfortunately the link has been closed. Instead you can see the full fight of an example of someone who just continues to pin after pin after pin until there is nothing left in the tank. He also did this to Ryron Gracie.



Many people might say it's weight that makes the difference. It helps but there's also a lot of technique involved. It's not flashy but can really frustrate ground players who like to work the various guards & techniques. The best part is it does not take 10 years to know how to do it.

This all relates to the dominant position. I don't assume this position. Once it is understood then focus can shift to working on from the weaker position. Even here the focus can be on frames, how to escape and recover the position instead of knowing how to be an expert of 100 variations to an inverted triangle.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:44 am

I think you should have some know how on your back, no matter what. especially if you're a women. I know I would encourage my daughter to learn some self defence escapes and techniques from non dominant positions... It really isn't that big a deal. A little goes a long way in that regard I think.
You could be a Judo black belt, but if you're 11 stone and a 17 stone rugby player tackles you, you are going on the bottom.

Then (and only then really) you can have your "I'll stick to top" gameplan all you like.. . But it's all about probabilities and what you train for, your true desires.
It's all very well looking at MMA fights and tactics/ styles, but the reality is that self defence is usually stacked against you unless you go looking for fights with other "young bucks".
If you're victimised it's because you are seen as weaker and more vulnerable, certainly unlikely to be someone of equal size and weight or if they are they will be sure to have a knife or similar. So it can be a bit problematic to use sports fighting to define self defence tactics for you, or lets say their relevence may or may not be evident depending on the kind of situation it is. I think it's rarely really that kind of duelistic thing I think. edit* it could be but are we straying away from "self defence" and into "guys getting into fights"..

I mean the original post here came with the premise of being attacked by someone versed in BJJ.
And that's not some clowns copying what they see on TV, everyone can do that. I mean if that's "your" reason, it's not something I take seriously.
The probabilities of a half decent BJJ guy victimising you is so small it's just pretty dumb to me.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:12 am

I think I'll leave this here, good advice.
this guy is a wing chun sifu and also a bjj BB.

https://www.facebook.com/33811239306124 ... 061700343/
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby shoebox55 on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:36 pm

I think I didn’t express myself clearly. I should’ve said is the main objective to get out from Under a dominant grappling position? From there get to one’s feet and utilize tai chi techniques? Therefore, learning submission techniques wouldn’t be that important but rather evading/getting out from under a top mount, for instance, would be where one should spend one’s energy, if supplementing their main style with a goundfighting art?
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Dmitri on Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:24 pm

shoebox55 wrote:getting out from under a top mount, for instance, would be where one should spend one’s energy, if supplementing their main style with a goundfighting art?

Funny, that's the first lesson in Gracies' curriculum :)

I heard Tim Cartmell had a good series or book or whatever focusing on getting up from ground.

Don't think you can escape (pun intended) learning to be comfortable on the ground first though. I mean if you want actual skill, i.e. less reliance on chance...
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby shoebox55 on Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:03 am

Thanks, I'll have to check out that book. I agree with you that you need to have live ground experience. I'm just trying to customize my training to filter out only that is necessary for majority of self defense situations, especially where you find yourself on the bottom, or if someone drags you down from behind and chokes or beats you. I don't necessarily want to be specialized in art say gracie jj, but don't how else to gain necessary skills without having to go through the system, and end up acquiring more techniques/dedicate more time than i would really want.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby cloudz on Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:16 am

Tim Cartmells Ground proofing DVD; you can look up the trailer on youtube. You'll still need willing people (or person) to practice with to learn the stuff.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Fubo on Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:25 am

Definitely check out Tim Cartmell's ground proofing DVD if your interest is how to defend on the ground and stand up. In an interview he mentioned that the purpose of the DVD was to give stand up guys basic ground defense so they can survive on the ground without dedicating the majority of their time to ground training. If you go to a BJJ school, especially one that focuses on sport JJ, it could take you a long time to extrapolate what you need for street specific ground defense and getting back up (paraphrasing Tim here), so the DVD cuts to the chase in that sense. You don't need the counter to the counter to the counter to just defend yourself against some regular dude (as mentioned the chances of you fighting against a well trained grappler on the street is extremely low).
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