BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Ian on Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:53 am

"I prefer to stand" is like "I prefer to not get hit in the face". Sure it makes complete sense, but sometimes you don't get to choose.



James Toney:
"I don’t know jiujitsu, I don’t know wrestling, all I know is how to fight. Period."

"I don’t care if Randy Couture is a legend in this sport, I have had a career of knocking guys out in their back yards. Boxing is the superior science, we are the best. I am going to show that wrestling and hugging people is for women. That’s not going to happen against me. I have a lot of KO’s in my career and you will see another one on August 28th."

"That jiu jitsu, all the hugging… its for girls."




This isn't taking anything away from Toney. He's amazing. One of my favorite boxers.

And big respect to him for putting his money where his mouth is.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Dmitri on Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:43 am

Taste of Death wrote:With a good taiji guy the bjj guy will end up on the ground by himself

I used to think that too, -- it's not always the case, although a good tai chi guy is very hard to take down.

But how about you also add the word "good" to the "bjj guy", in that sentence. Take two similarly-talented guys of the same size from the two respective arts with, say, 5 years of training each, and your above statement will hold almost no water.

It's not that we can't fight on the ground

Yes. Yes it is exactly that. "We", i.e. "tai chi guys", can't. It's just as arrogant (or ignorant, or both) to say, as it would be for a BJJ guy to say "it's not like we can't do a tai chi form..." Or for a ballet dancer to say "it's not like I can't play a violin..."
It's a specialized skill that takes training time, like any other.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby everything on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:24 am

I can't believe we still have this conversation in 2017.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:43 am

"We", i.e. "tai chi guys", can't.


I'd prefer "don't" to "can't," which is not to presume that tcc practitioners "can." The ones who "can" are the ones who "do." Those who do, know they can. Those who don't, don't.

But, I think the clear fault in this entire argument is the assumption that the opponents are skilled. I totally doubt that many "fights" (outside of a gym, school, kwoon, dojo, etc.) occur between opponents who are both skilled. So, someone who does bjj doesn't have to worry much about a tcc guy, and vice versa. Cross-training is totally unnecessary, from that perspective.

But, if I were 20 and aspiring to do martial arts as a sport or competitively, I would absolutely train ground work. Well, I sent all my kids to judo before anything else. I agree with Maarten (inm) that it's better to start with an external training before trying to go internal. Though, not everyone can do that or wants to.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby RobP3 on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:12 am

everything wrote:I can't believe we still have this conversation in 2017.


I know...and forget fighting even, just learning to move on the ground in various ways and transitioning between standing and floor brings benefits in so many areas I don't understand why people would not want to do it
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:30 am

In most threads like this there seems to be a comparative assumption about fairness.
skill relative to fighters, length of time to develop skill ect…

For sportive events, one in gen. can not make it to the higher levels without going through some type of vetting process.
Many seem to seek some idea of fairness comparable to sporting events. Ht, weight, fight record ect.

In China, in the past this was never really true, this fueled the development of different styles
each addressing some element or skill set feeling this would give them the advantage.

A not so different out look that BJJ had in its early days with its somewhat unique approach,
which as some have noted due to its widespread fame is not as effective as maybe it once was.

In non sportive events, being on the ground or brought to the ground is usually a finishing type of movement. The main point is either not to get there or get back up as soon as possible, not really to stay there.

One problem I’ve noted with taiji in gen. Is that the ph is taken as the way the style is used instead of a training tool used to develop some unique and distinct skill sets. This leads to an outlook of the style that to me is quite limited in scope and use.

Instead of asking for clips of some master, I often wonder why some don’t use their own experience as a guide. The basic claim seems to be that people are unaware of the ground game or never interacted with anyone who was skilled in it….Would not this also be true for those who’ve never interacted with someone skilled in taiji…..or any other CMA art?

IME of those I've met in many different types of grappling arts. Most could not really apply what they used due to the uniqueness of skill sets.
"Tingjin" while some feel is the same with those who do grapple, IME is really not developed to the same depth.

I would include some taiji players in this as well,,,somehow they seem to misunderstand it.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:34 am

Well, groundwork is also a specific skill set; and Dmitri's point was that it was a skill that tcc (generally) and tcc practitioners specifically do no have. The op question was whether it were necessary. My own answer was "it depends."

Whether someone (a tcc master) with no ground experience could deal with an experienced bjj black belt is really a separate issue, though it was asked simultaneously. My opinion is that there's really no reason to consider such a theoretical event. What happens, if it happens at all, is that someone who's practiced a martial art might be put in a position to face someone who's probably unskilled and untrained. He might be big and strong, but the number of martial artists, particularly skilled ones, is very small. That's counting the people who think they're skilled.

RobP asked why this question continues. My answer would be "ego." Everybody thinks what he practices is the best ;).
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby johnwang on Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:15 pm

a BJJ guy's finish moves are:

- arm bar,
- leg bar,
- choke,
- ...

What are a Taiji guy's finish moves? How can you win a fight without "dependable finish moves"? When you fight someone from different MA system, it will be your "dependable finish moves" vs. your opponent's "dependable finish moves". If a Taiji guy can kill a BJJ guy during standing, that Taiji guy doesn't have to worry about the ground game.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby willie on Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:00 pm

johnwang wrote:a BJJ guy's finish moves are:

- arm bar,
- leg bar,
- choke,
- ...

What are a Taiji guy's finish moves? How can you win a fight without "dependable finish moves"? When you fight someone from different MA system, it will be your "dependable finish moves" vs. your opponent's "dependable finish moves". If a Taiji guy can kill a BJJ guy during standing, that Taiji guy doesn't have to worry about the ground game.


it's fajin striking and fajin breaking to end the fight.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby willie on Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:07 pm

windwalker wrote:In most threads like this there seems to be a comparative assumption about fairness.
skill relative to fighters, length of time to develop skill ect…

For sportive events, one in gen. can not make it to the higher levels without going through some type of vetting process.
Many seem to seek some idea of fairness comparable to sporting events. Ht, weight, fight record ect.

In China, in the past this was never really true, this fueled the development of different styles
each addressing some element or skill set feeling this would give them the advantage.

A not so different out look that BJJ had in its early days with its somewhat unique approach,
which as some have noted due to its widespread fame is not as effective as maybe it once was.

In non sportive events, being on the ground or brought to the ground is usually a finishing type of movement. The main point is either not to get there or get back up as soon as possible, not really to stay there.

One problem I’ve noted with taiji in gen. Is that the ph is taken as the way the style is used instead of a training tool used to develop some unique and distinct skill sets. This leads to an outlook of the style that to me is quite limited in scope and use.

Instead of asking for clips of some master, I often wonder why some don’t use their own experience as a guide. The basic claim seems to be that people are unaware of the ground game or never interacted with anyone who was skilled in it….Would not this also be true for those who’ve never interacted with someone skilled in taiji…..or any other CMA art?

IME of those I've met in many different types of grappling arts. Most could not really apply what they used due to the uniqueness of skill sets.
"Tingjin" while some feel is the same with those who do grapple, IME is really not developed to the same depth.

I would include some taiji players in this as well,,,somehow they seem to misunderstand it.


wow great post
about the listening skill. yes people think it's the same in their art, but no it's not the same.
i was challenged in Chinatown by a Chinese guy who was very very good. when he used his listening skill
it was more like he tried to sense any imperfections in the frame, scanning inside the opponents body as an extension of your own.
Last edited by willie on Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:38 pm

willie wrote:
johnwang wrote:a BJJ guy's finish moves are:

- arm bar,
- leg bar,
- choke,
- ...

What are a Taiji guy's finish moves? How can you win a fight without "dependable finish moves"? When you fight someone from different MA system, it will be your "dependable finish moves" vs. your opponent's "dependable finish moves". If a Taiji guy can kill a BJJ guy during standing, that Taiji guy doesn't have to worry about the ground game.


it's fajin striking and fajin breaking to end the fight.


This is what I mentioned earlier ;)

Finishing moves.
Many people due to the practice of ph, somehow feel that the practice used to train a skill
is the same as how the skill is used,,,its not 8-) In taiji it is said "what ever is touched bleeds"
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:31 pm

In taiji it is said "what ever is touched bleeds"


Couldya give a citation? Is it from the Classics somewhere?
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:47 pm

Steve James wrote:
In taiji it is said "what ever is touched bleeds"


Couldya give a citation? Is it from the Classics somewhere?


this was told to me orally, though translation

Any movement can cause the opponent injury and bleeding

the meaning is the same.

Its been written in other places,,,As Willie, might say its not something that one can readily practice with another person. In demoing things in the past I have accidentally broken others bones..."clean break in the radius" they said felt like a sharp pain later showed to be a clean brake by xray. For most people they just use whats called long power..

Levels eight to ten are advanced Tai Chi Chuan kung-fu. Because I have not achieved this yet, I cannot define what it is. From what I heard from my teacher and sixty years of practical experience, anyone who has achieved this level can do wonderful things. This is what the classics commonly refer to when it says, “the opponent does not know me but I know the opponent.” The body is so sensitive and light that one cannot add one feather, fly and mosquito cannot land on the body. When an opponent punches the body, the opponent is already injured and is flying backward but you did not see my improvement. Any movement can cause the opponent injury and bleeding. Of course, in martial arts training, There is no such thing as the end state. The more you practice, the better the skill. Skill is infinite. Tai Chi Chuan practitioners past and present have achieved skill that most people do not believe was humanly possible.

https://neigong.net/tag/pushhands/

Tai Chi Chuan practitioners past and present have achieved skill that most people do not believe was humanly possible.


IME with those I've met this is very true.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:15 pm

Ah, that's from GS Chu's school, and he's talking about levels. Of course, let's say this applies to all of tcc. He hasn't reached that level. I can't say I know anyone who has, which is not to say that it's "not humanly possible." Yeah, I guess it would be kinda hard to practice it.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:42 pm

It may have been written in accordance with his school, I've heard it mentioned by other teachers from different lines.
Thought it was commonly known among most taiji circles, at least the ones I know of it is.

As to the rest, ya I've met people who's practice was like that.
When they talk of sealing the breath or stopping the blood ect.
Its quite literal.
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