BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:38 pm

Dmitri wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:With a good taiji guy the bjj guy will end up on the ground by himself

I used to think that too, -- it's not always the case, although a good tai chi guy is very hard to take down.

But how about you also add the word "good" to the "bjj guy", in that sentence. Take two similarly-talented guys of the same size from the two respective arts with, say, 5 years of training each, and your above statement will hold almost no water.

It's not that we can't fight on the ground

Yes. Yes it is exactly that. "We", i.e. "tai chi guys", can't. It's just as arrogant (or ignorant, or both) to say, as it would be for a BJJ guy to say "it's not like we can't do a tai chi form..." Or for a ballet dancer to say "it's not like I can't play a violin..."
It's a specialized skill that takes training time, like any other.


Most taiji/xingyi/bagua/yiquan guys come from other arts. My taiji sifu learned judo in the marines, his top xingyi student was a former college wrestler and when I was studying judo half the class was newaza. If my brother did bjj for five years vs me doing taiji/yiquan for an equal time he would stand no chance. Just ask willie. ;D
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby willie on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:51 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
Dmitri wrote:
But how about you also add the word "good" to the "bjj guy", in that sentence. Take two similarly-talented guys of the same size from the two respective arts with, say, 5 years of training each, and your above statement will hold almost no water.


Most taiji/xingyi/bagua/yiquan guys come from other arts. My taiji sifu learned judo in the marines, his top xingyi student was a former college wrestler and when I was studying judo half the class was newaza. If my brother did bjj for five years vs me doing taiji/yiquan for an equal time he would stand no chance. Just ask willie. ;D


Actually i would have to say that the bjj guy would win at only 5 years. plus that, who's to say that the taiji transmission is any good either?
In bjj there is really no such thing as a bad transmission. So in most cases the bjj guy will completely shred the taichi guy,
But what about the higher levels of tai chi?
Last edited by willie on Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby willie on Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:47 pm

It doesn't matter which art is better. What matters is you, your style, the one that is for you, the one that you care about.
It wouldn't make any sense to pursue an art that your heart wasn't into. it's you and your responsibility to make it work.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:28 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
yeniseri wrote:All fights must end up on the ground unless one got lucky or great skill and the individual goes down with a single well placed punch!
If you trained it, or are conditioned then you will overcome regardless of what you train. Is it functional or not or, how can I make it more functional!

I strongly disagree that both parties must end up on the ground, if that is what you meant.


I didn't realize that this thread was still alive. As a long time grappler myself I too agree that the all fights go to the ground is grossly exaggerated and more than likely based on police arresting people in which case they are trained to take people to the ground and hand-cuff them but in most street fights I have seen taking the fight to the ground is very dangerous because often times other people will get involved.

In fact here is a bjj blackbelt who fights three guys and doesn't go to the ground.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOUkuNFlqxM

Saying that I still think some type of ground game is important but be realistic. I would never take it to the ground ever. If I were to ever use my grappling it would be to defend myself from grappling. Why would I want to roll around and deal with knives, teeth, people passing by, getting arrested or kicked in the head as dude does in this video? Forget that I will keep things on my feet and get away as soon as it is safe to.
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:41 am

windwalker wrote:In most threads like this there seems to be a comparative assumption about fairness.
skill relative to fighters, length of time to develop skill ect…

For sportive events, one in gen. can not make it to the higher levels without going through some type of vetting process.
Many seem to seek some idea of fairness comparable to sporting events. Ht, weight, fight record ect.

In China, in the past this was never really true, this fueled the development of different styles
each addressing some element or skill set feeling this would give them the advantage.

A not so different out look that BJJ had in its early days with its somewhat unique approach,
which as some have noted due to its widespread fame is not as effective as maybe it once was.

In non sportive events, being on the ground or brought to the ground is usually a finishing type of movement. The main point is either not to get there or get back up as soon as possible, not really to stay there.

One problem I’ve noted with taiji in gen. Is that the ph is taken as the way the style is used instead of a training tool used to develop some unique and distinct skill sets. This leads to an outlook of the style that to me is quite limited in scope and use.

Instead of asking for clips of some master, I often wonder why some don’t use their own experience as a guide. The basic claim seems to be that people are unaware of the ground game or never interacted with anyone who was skilled in it….Would not this also be true for those who’ve never interacted with someone skilled in taiji…..or any other CMA art?

IME of those I've met in many different types of grappling arts. Most could not really apply what they used due to the uniqueness of skill sets.
"Tingjin" while some feel is the same with those who do grapple, IME is really not developed to the same depth.

I would include some taiji players in this as well,,,somehow they seem to misunderstand it.


Good points made here. I do agree that too often in taiji that PHs becomes the end all be all of how skill is measured. PHs is awesome but obviously at one time (and sometimes today) taiji went well beyond that and more into actual fighting.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:20 am

I would never take it to the ground ever. If I were to ever use my grappling it would be to defend myself from grappling.


Ya know, when we were coming up, wrestling was part of almost every junior high and high school physical education program. Until high school, though, the wrestling was all stand up. There wasn't as much ground work, per se. When you were on the ground position, you got points for escapes. Anyway, I have to say that I can't remember seeing two people continue fighting after they hit the ground because they never hit the ground together. I've seen guys suplexed, and the fight was over. I've seen lots of guys grappling while standing (even in boxing) too. (Actually, I'd say that tcc occupies this middle ground of strikes/throws).
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby grzegorz on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:53 am

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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:41 pm

I just happened to run across this video on FB. It's an example of a stand up wrestler against someone who'd prefer to be on the ground, or was better prepared to be there.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtSQSbJzGAM

Of course, in a situation like this, the wrestler has an idea of what his opponent will try. It doesn't hurt that he's also bigger.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:15 pm

The slam at the :56 mark clearly injured him some where on the right side, in a fight he would have been finished, fortunately it was a mere match, his continuance was more ego, a fighters pride, than anything else
The point . is absolute
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:30 pm

Jesus fucking Christ... That was shockingly pathetic..
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Dmitri on Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:56 pm

Yeah one's just a better grappler. The other guy's just weird. :)
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby johnwang on Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:19 pm

Here are 2 questions.

1. What the value of your ground skill if you can't even take your opponent down?
2. If you have good take down skill and good body slam skill, can you skip your ground skill training? This clip shows may be you can.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby everything on Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:42 pm

the internet including occasionally RSF has already discussed this 1 billion times (proven fact, not fake news) since the advent of ground and pound and the emergence of wrestlers. go to any local bjj lesson and there are wrestlers there who are obviously better than everyone else at takedowns and anti-takedowns. I wonder if the OP is still reading this thread, if he was a troll, a newb, or whatnot. oh well. slow news day on rsf, I guess.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Greg J on Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:30 am

Steve James wrote:
I just happened to run across this video on FB. It's an example of a stand up wrestler against someone who'd prefer to be on the ground, or was better prepared to be there.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtSQSbJzGAM

Of course, in a situation like this, the wrestler has an idea of what his opponent will try. It doesn't hurt that he's also bigger.



Wow, that was painful to watch. It would be interesting to know the context of the match.

As related to the OP, IMHO it's pretty simple. Why are you training? If part of your motivation to train is being able to defend yourself then of course you want to have some basic knowledge of takedowns, anti-takedowns, and groundfighting. It doesn't have to be a complete system (again, why are you training?) but enough so that you can deal with some common takedownds & submissions, and initiate some of your own.

Here is another video of a wrestler & a BJJ guy that are more evenly paired. The match could have gone either way (and almost did).



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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:40 am

I agree that it is (and always is) a question of the individuals. I posted the vid because it illustrated takedown avoidance more than the offensive slams.

I also agree that how much time one spends on groundwork depends on one's interests (sport, self-defense, physical cultivation, etc). That said, some study of how to avoid situations that one is not familiar with is a good idea. So is, as the wrestler shows in the first video, and John W continually points out, having a "finishing strategy."
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