BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby bartekb on Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:13 am

1. What the value of your ground skill if you can't even take your opponent down?
2. If you have good take down skill and good body slam skill, can you skip your ground skill training? This clip shows may be you can.

1. your takedown skills can be quite medicore if you dont mind landing on the ground with your opponent, your takedown skill needs to be much higher than your opponents defense if you plan for him to land on the gorund and you to be standing.
If you figh an amazing wrestler it might be really hard to be better than him at throwing - but if you manage to pull guard on him you might have just nullified his standing game - and it might be sufficient to have 1 year of bjj experience if he has 0 to win.
2. of course you can, if you have a perfect spinning jump kick you can skip boxing, clinch, grappling throwing and ground. Will you risk not having a skill in certain distance at all? Is you other distance skill so perfect?
I would say its always worth investing some time in all kicking, punching, throwing and ground game - why would you skip ground game?
Last edited by bartekb on Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby shawnsegler on Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:34 pm

For someone with no ground game, I've found the information I got from Tim Cartmell at a seminar specifically about the material on this dvd to be great. I bought the dvd and have used it to try and incorporate the skills from it into rotation with the rest of my MA routine.

It's super useful for those who don't have the time to take up a grappling art.



Also if, for whatever reason, you want some ground skills but decide that BJJ isn't for you, most styles of Silat and specifically Harimau have high quality ground skills as part of their training as well, which a lot of MA can't say for themselves. FWIW.





Last edited by shawnsegler on Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:16 pm

shawnsegler wrote:For someone with no ground game, I've found the information I got from Tim Cartmell at a seminar specifically about the material on this dvd to be great. I bought the dvd and have used it to try and incorporate the skills from it into rotation with the rest of my MA routine.

It's super useful for those who don't have the time to take up a grappling art.



+1 on Ground Proofing

bartekb wrote:
if you have a perfect spinning jump kick you can skip boxing, clinch, grappling throwing and ground. Will you risk not having a skill in certain distance at all? Is you other distance skill so perfect?
I would say its always worth investing some time in all kicking, punching, throwing and ground game - why would you skip ground game?


If one is relying on a spinning jump kick it looks like they skipped the standup game as well.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Dmitri on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:49 pm

Greg J wrote:Here is another video of a wrestler & a BJJ guy that are more evenly paired. The match could have gone either way (and almost did).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wDb1RNYb8M

On that subject again -- one of the biggest differences is that BJJ folks seem to be inherently much more comfortable in "bad positions" (specifically, being on your back) than wrestlers. If they can survive there long enough (which is the main fighting strategy of the art), the other guy gets tired and/or disheartened and then more doors begin to open for the guy on the bottom to get to a better position and eventually win.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby bartekb on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:15 pm

If one is relying on a spinning jump kick it looks like they skipped the standup game as well.

tell it to Pettis:)
my experience is simple - its extremally difficult to remain standing up if your opponent wants you and him on the ground.
Several times I was in situation sparring with people that had amazing standup game compared to mine - I basically had to shorten the distance and if I was able to grab on anything - we both went down. Even if the guy managed to secure a guillotine standing up, once we were one the ground - still the more advanced ground player wins.

What I cant understand - why anyone WOULDNT want to have at least basic understanding of ground game?
Last edited by bartekb on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:47 pm

bartekb wrote:
If one is relying on a spinning jump kick it looks like they skipped the standup game as well.

tell it to Pettis:)
my experience is simple - its extremally difficult to remain standing up if your opponent wants you and him on the ground.
Several times I was in situation sparring with people that had amazing standup game compared to mine - I basically had to shorten the distance and if I was able to grab on anything - we both went down. Even if the guy managed to secure a guillotine standing up, once we were one the ground - still the more advanced ground player wins.

What I cant understand - why anyone WOULDNT want to have at least basic understanding of ground game?


Shorten the distance vs the spinning back kick or just about anything else. That's what good cima should do. It's hard to take someone down if they can keep their opponent at arm's length. I prefer to engage at the tip of my sword rather than the hilt.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Steve James on Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:10 pm

Spinning flying back kicks work just fine, if they hit you. It's the same with a left hook or right cross. It's true that a ground-fighting expert (or adept) has an advantage on the ground. Afa the need to be adept, now we're talking about theoretical situations. I no more believe that anyone who studies X art can beat anyone who studies Y or Z.

Afa the benefits of learning bjj or ground-fighting in general, if I were just starting out and wanted to be competitive, I would certainly spend some time on learning some.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby yeniseri on Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:54 am

Any technique works within either a narrow window or a broad window based on the skill of the practitioner!
I remember the "clown" UK prince boxer who was terrific with opponents at his skill or lower but when he took on more skilled opponents opponents, he true level was observably apparant.

Add the skill of someone like a Muhammad Ali vs a Tyson and you see why spinning kicks will work on some people and not others or how a great grappler like Rousey can be stopped by a great puncher like Holm, keeping in mind that mixing of skill is a positive if one know what the lack is and strives to close the gap.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Tiga Pukul on Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:20 pm

shawnsegler wrote:For someone with no ground game, I've found the information I got from Tim Cartmell at a seminar specifically about the material on this dvd to be great. I bought the dvd and have used it to try and incorporate the skills from it into rotation with the rest of my MA routine.
It's super useful for those who don't have the time to take up a grappling art.

Also if, for whatever reason, you want some ground skills but decide that BJJ isn't for you, most styles of Silat and specifically Harimau have high quality ground skills as part of their training as well, which a lot of MA can't say for themselves. FWIW.


Just had some BJJ/MMA ground work today at a seminar and it was quite fun to do. My experience with Silat in groundwork however is quite different, more similar to Benitez' stuff where all movement, also on the ground are meant for kicking and punching. Both are nice.

Funnily enough i talked to a young guy after the seminar and he didn't like our Pukulan Bukti Negara part because it was too much 'close combat' standing up and 'too painful' but loved the MMA groundwork. He said that it was more realistic to fight on the ground, not so much standing up. I could only think....wow....good luck fighting on the ground in a bar with pieces of glass on the ground and a couple of friends of your opponent willing to soccer kick you.
But....invaluable to know what to do when you are on the ground! Useful skills, for 1/4 of your skills probably.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby shoebox55 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:01 pm

shawnsegler, very informative post, especially about Silat having ground fighting. Don’t mean to detract from the original question but Anyone know if there are any other martial arts that teach ground fighting from a non sportive self defense angle? With regards to BJJ, are there certain branches that focus on self defense and not sport?
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby willie on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:31 pm

shoebox55 wrote:shawnsegler, very informative post, especially about Silat having ground fighting. Don’t mean to detract from the original question but Anyone know if there are any other martial arts that teach ground fighting from a non sportive self defense angle? With regards to BJJ, are there certain branches that focus on self defense and not sport?


I can answer a little bit of your post. I do have a training partner from Silat/Yang style, he's quite good with over 30 years experience.


He actually surprised me that he wanted to go to the ground with me, but he's a pretty tough dude, wiry.
I don't really know how much ground work he had but i can tell you that even though he was tough, it's
not enough, he got caught in my heal hook and he didn't even know to tap so his knee popped out. I haven't heard from him since.

The other part of your question is just delusion on the part of the viewer. "all jujitsu is non-sport", in the street you break it.
Last edited by willie on Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby RobP3 on Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:17 am

shoebox55 wrote:shawnsegler, very informative post, especially about Silat having ground fighting. Don’t mean to detract from the original question but Anyone know if there are any other martial arts that teach ground fighting from a non sportive self defense angle? With regards to BJJ, are there certain branches that focus on self defense and not sport?


RMA / Systema teach ground work from a movement and self defence perspective
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby bartekb on Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:28 am

With regards to BJJ, are there certain branches that focus on self defense and not sport?

I do not know how exactly the scene looks like in US but all the clubs I have visited and the one I train in have active MMA competitors - usually theres at least one on national/european level. So those clubs will have mma classes, usually a boxing coach with 20+ years of experience, wrestling coach and so on. All guys training bjj will cross train with guys training MMA.

Sports bjj (50/50, berimbolos etc. its way harder to master than basic "street" bjj - so believe me - if someone can compete in "sports" they have already mastered the basic self defence aspects years ago.
I virtually havent met a blue/purple belt guy that did not have some background in striking.

My problem with those silat vids is this - those look like nothing Ive seen on the ground.
Whenever I see anyone doing any grappling or active sparring - can be african wrestling, can be mongolian, can be eurpoean historical grappling - it will look a bit similar as long as those guys spar.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby Dmitri on Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:37 am

willie wrote:he got caught in my heal hook and he didn't even know to tap so his knee popped out

...and you? Didn't even know to release it in time, or didn't even care to? :o -argh- -loco- :-X

shoebox55 wrote:With regards to BJJ, are there certain branches that focus on self defense and not sport?

Gracie family traditional curriculum is almost 100% self-defense, it came from vale tudo. I'm sure there are some others.
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Re: BJJ/Groundfighting a necessary supplement?

Postby bartekb on Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:42 am

Gracie family traditional curriculum is almost 100% self-defense, it came from vale tudo. I'm sure there are some others.


funnily enough the branches known for their real life effeciency dont shy away from competing at all ie. Carlson Gracie lineage
"100% self defence" hype is a fairly new thing in my observation, as with anywhere else trying to sell people an illusion of effeciency wihout too much pain and sweat
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