the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Would someone just name a tcc master and, if possible, show a video of him working on the ground? Now, you could use Tim (Cartmell), but I'm sure there's no consensus on his tcc "master" status. I don't think anyone cares about titles when they're on the ground, fwiw. But, no sense continuing to debate theoretical situations. Practical examples are better, especially for the original poster.

Yeah, for the op, search Youtube for tcc + groundfighting. See what you get that interests you. For the bjjers, what do you think of this example, for example.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG03odmLr48

I think the better way to address the question is to try to rephrase it without talking about styles. So:

If I want to be more comfortable working from ground positions, should I practice more from ground positions?

The answer to that should be simple.

The remaining issue is finding people that you want to practice ground positions with. Since ground fighting isn't the focus of TJQ or most CIMA, it's much harder to find people who do that regularly. But, theoretically at least, TJQ principles could be adapted for use on the ground; but it's difficult because most CIMA guys (myself included) don't really like ground grappling.

Steve James wrote:For the bjjers, what do you think of this example

It's really great that they are exploring it. I'll just leave it at that.

The next step would be to go to a BJJ gym and try/test his stuff on someone who has a clue, even a "lower belt" guy.

The next step would be to go to a BJJ gym and try/test his stuff on someone who has a clue, even a "lower belt" guy.

Or invite a bjj guy in to practice with. And, make sure to start from the ground and let the tcc guy try to stand up.

I think that specialising in BJJ is far too unrealistic, but cross-training in it a little bit just to know what to do if one ever winds up in that position is not a bad idea at all. BJJ certainly has its merits. In some situations it works wonderfully. It's important to know its limits as well. Taijiquan, trained well, should cover 95% of all fighting situations and is a more complete art. Good luck finding someone that can use it to fight, though..

Personally I think that Taijiquan is a terribly inefficient way to learn how to fight and strongly advocate that one learn how to fight first, then learn Taijiquan - unless the teacher is amazing and has crafted a really tight training regimen to maximise results in as little time as possible instead of stretching it out of a decade...

GrahamB wrote:rec.martial-arts Tai Chi vs Wrestling, 2001.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... %5B1-25%5D

This is beyond BTDT!

OH MY GOSH...Rec.Martial-arts circa 2000 HAHAHAHA

DUDE...pulling out the oldies eh? I remember getting into it with Mike Sigman, (dang taiji almightist! ) hahaha.

Those were the days prior to any of the major MA forums. Then big brother Gene got the idea to buy the accounts and create the 1st version of KungfuMagazine forum. Fun times...mostly frustrating. haha

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I would like to answer:

Post by Steve James on Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:19 pm
Would someone just name a tcc master and, if possible, show a video of him working on the ground?

IMO and to be brief: NOT!!! Taiji is a standing style, one that roots from the feet through the waist and ultimately expresses it's energy out to the extremities (ie. hands, feet, shoulders or even hips and such)

BUT off your feet or on your back...it's fantasy to believe that any of the forms practice, push hands or even San Da type drills will help you much....ala on your back.

You can use Kung fu principles from there, but they are far and few between that would be effective from your back. Least of all would they be considered useful Taiji.

I don't think that adding a bit of ground training to your Taiji takes away from Taiji in any way. It's like learning some weapon skills. It adds to your overall martial repertoire and in no way negatively impacts your main art. I learned a bit of knife stuff from WMA and from my master here in China and it changed my perspective a lot. Same with groundwork. But it's not the core of my art. The Jian was just tacked on to Taijiquan fairly recently as well. It has its own training methods and techniques. Sure, the way a Taijiquan practitioner and a Baguazhang practitioner wield it would have some of their own flair, but it's still its own thing.

I could see practitioners of Taiji that use their art as more of a wrestling style finding BJJ more beneficial than us stand up strikers, but even for me learning a bit of groundwork has made me a better all-round fighter and more prepared for any situation. I think that the most important thing is to train hard for at least several years in your chosen art before taking up extra pursuits. My master always says that to get good at fighting with weapons the best way is to first be good at unarmed fighting. There is no easy work-around. That's why I hate all these "my art is too deadly" people. They haven't even mastered the basics and would die in a real fight.

Boxing and BJJ, are very focused arts. They do what they do very well. It would be foolish to underestimate them, just as it's foolish when they overestimate themselves. That is why I advocate cross-training even just a little bit so as not to be surprised when the time comes, because boxing and BJJ are quite popular and everyone and their mother are doing it.

I'm currently training with boxers for about six months and it has really opened my eyes. I have cross-trained in Shuaijiao, Judo and BJJ years ago. Test your art! If you only fight against other Taiji people or, even worse, only push with Taiji pushers God help you if you ever have to fight with someone that doesn't live in your bubble. EVERY master that I've met that can fight knows this and has cross-trained or would jump at the opportunity or at least tell their students to do so. In most places that I've gone to people were happy to train with me without killing me and I learned a lot.

Steve James wrote:Would someone just name a tcc master and, if possible, show a video of him working on the ground? Now, you could use Tim (Cartmell), but I'm sure there's no consensus on his tcc "master" status. I don't think anyone cares about titles when they're on the ground, fwiw. But, no sense continuing to debate theoretical situations. Practical examples are better, especially for the original poster.

Yeah, for the op, search Youtube for tcc + groundfighting. See what you get that interests you. For the bjjers, what do you think of this example, for example.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG03odmLr48

That's not tai chi. Tai chi is an internally powered art. There is none there.
Besides that BJJ has proved itself to be 1# for ground combat situations.
There is no reason to look anywhere else that i know of for grounded combat.

You will never see a real tai chi master performing tai chi on the ground.
There is no way that a real taiji master will intently give up his root, ground is out.
Plus that, where are all the real tai chi masters? Are the ones who claim that status real?
How can anyone address a post like this, when the members most likely have never even seen a real tai chi master in the first place.
You guys talk tough. I have several years of ground grappling, not the best, but not to bad either. "there is no way that i would try it on WHJ".
Nope, not from the stuff that i have personally seen and taught, no way!

Very helpful and informative responses, thank you, especially MaartenSFS.

Steve James wrote:Would someone just name a tcc master and, if possible, show a video of him working on the ground?

Here is a video I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Mlao2iHo0&t=230s

shoebox55 wrote:Very helpful and informative responses, thank you, especially MaartenSFS.

Steve James wrote:Would someone just name a tcc master and, if possible, show a video of him working on the ground?

Here is a video I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Mlao2iHo0&t=230s

Re, the video. If that is what you need and want, what do you think of it? Maybe it answers your original question. But, I think that some may ask "what or where was the taichi in the clip?"

All fights must end up on the ground unless one got lucky or great skill and the individual goes down with a single well placed punch!
If you trained it, or are conditioned then you will overcome regardless of what you train. Is it functional or not or, how can I make it more functional!

shoebox55 wrote:Very helpful and informative responses, thank you, especially MaartenSFS.

Steve James wrote:Would someone just name a tcc master and, if possible, show a video of him working on the ground?

Here is a video I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Mlao2iHo0&t=230s

sorry but that doesn't qualify as taiji either.
what you are really watching is just a taiji guy wrestling on the ground.
many people make the mistake of thinking that just because they train some sort of taiji that everything that they do is now classified as internal or taiji.
No it's not.

With a good taiji guy the bjj guy will end up on the ground by himself. It's not that we can't fight on the ground. I could sit on the wet bleachers at my niece's football match but I prefer to stand rather than sit in a puddle.

yeniseri wrote:All fights must end up on the ground unless one got lucky or great skill and the individual goes down with a single well placed punch!
If you trained it, or are conditioned then you will overcome regardless of what you train. Is it functional or not or, how can I make it more functional!

I strongly disagree that both parties must end up on the ground, if that is what you meant.

Taste of Death wrote:With a good taiji guy the bjj guy will end up on the ground by himself.

yup. as the lines of force are redirected to the root, the energy becomes to shear to hold onto.