The Dan Tian

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:45 am

charles wrote:
Bao wrote:I think you confuse what a person says with what he actually does.... :-\


That was my point in posting it. (It was posted in a different thread by someone else.)

People often say, "I'm doing "x"", when, in fact, they are doing no such thing. This happened to be an example of someone saying they are using the "dan tian", the subject of this thread, when he has no ideas what "the dan tian" might be. It isn't the hips, it isn't the waist and isn't the ankles or the turning of any of those, as is often demonstrated and stated as examples of "using the dan tian". This is one of the sources of confusion - in this example, regarding the dan tian - when "teachers" teach stuff they have no idea about, but use the buzz words anyway.

Although we can't necessarily agree on what it is, perhaps we can agree on what it is not. ;)

This one, from that same thread, says, he is using his waist. He isn't: 3:50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inB3xNWAgy8&t=3s


I see... I should know you better and understood. My mistake.

No there's no Dantian in the first vid and hardly any waist movement at all in the second vid.

As an aside, I think it interesting that I posted a video clip from another discussion and made no comment, offered no analysis of it and provided no opinion of it and both of you respond by suggesting I have some deficiency, in one case, so severe as to make further discussion impossible. Isn't that a little odd?

Is it really not possible to objectively discuss what it is presented, rather than attribute certain personal flaws to the person who posted it? You know that it is not me in the video, or my video, right?


I don't want to discuss the Montague movement. That discussion is too infected and these gents have been discussed so many times before. It's better to discuss general attributes without personal references.... However... I could say that I am surprised that Eli is so stiff. He looks tense even when he speak normally. He would definitely benefit from meeting up with other teachers who could show him the basics and teach him to relax.... :-\

.... -bolt- .... ..... -music-
Last edited by Bao on Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:20 am

Bao wrote: My mistake.


No problem.

No there's no Dantian in the first vid and hardly any waist movement at all in the second vid.


We are in agreement. ;D

I don't want to discuss the Montague movement.


Nor do I. It was just another ready-made example of someone saying they do something when they don't. There is a lot of that.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby robert on Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:38 am

There are so many things wrong with that Paul Brecher video, but I think it is worth commenting on. I'm interested in the body mechanics and not fighting, but when I do push hands workshops with people from China they often start with one person steps in to strike and the other person steps in to block. In taiji people do not square off to fight.

Here is an example of Chen Bing, in the black sash, doing kao. I like this video since it's from a competition and it's not a demonstration. Around 1:10 - 1:11 look at his angle of attack. This a weight shift with a whole body opening and note that he doesn't twist his hips. Also note around 0:54 when he takes his opponent's center - this a weight shift with a whole body closing and again he doesn't twist his hips, but there is a small turn of the waist.

https://youtu.be/rKJTJlQPSgI

I'll use this video to point out that in his late 20s Chen Bing is still pretty slim. I trained with him a bit a few years later and you wouldn't notice his dantian unless you did applications with him ;)
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Subitai on Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:35 pm

Hi robert,
Here is an example of Chen Bing, in the black sash, doing kao. I like this video since it's from a competition and it's not a demonstration. Around 1:10 - 1:11 look at his angle of attack. This a weight shift with a whole body opening and note that he doesn't twist his hips. Also note around 0:54 when he takes his opponent's center - this a weight shift with a whole body closing and again he doesn't twist his hips, but there is a small turn of the waist.


Interesting...Took a look at the time stamps you left.
1:10 - 1:11 his angle has allot to do with it (as you have said) since he enters his opponent on a perpendicular line...this is a common explosive method to use if you have a guy standing square up on you like that. Great skill on his part of course.
- His left leg steals a step in between his opponents...it's a quick bow stance. His skill in this instance is not exclusive to Taiji IMO.

- around 0:54 he does a divide(reap) by sweeping subtlety with his left leg heel...while the upper body is going a separate direction. That skill is often done in Chen Style push hands but also exists in other styles...I could post vid example.

My whole point is that there's been allot of discussion about the DT and waist movement. I think allot of good Kung Fu has this in general.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby robert on Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:12 pm

Subitai wrote:
My whole point is that there's been allot of discussion about the DT and waist movement. I think allot of good Kung Fu has this in general.


Hi Subitai,
I agree. I suspect there are a lot of arts that use neijin to some extent.
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:09 am

Subitai wrote:My whole point is that there's been allot of discussion about the DT and waist movement. I think allot of good Kung Fu has this in general.


Absolutely!

Just general thoughts, no lecturing intended: :)

All arts of physical body movement, as dancing traditions around the world, organise and arrange physical movement in pretty much the very same way - Starting from the middle of the body, the center of gravity, and outwards.

The way of making body movement efficient is the same for all bodies. The difference is more or less only if you arrange structure for holding or using something else, as a weapon or another body, or move free without anything else. As the Kung Fu traditions all focus on stance and balance the focus on arrangement of movement, it suggests that the tradition might have developed from warfare, weaponry and wrestling. Thus, an even stronger focus on developing stance and center is here more important than for many other movement arts. You can't throw someone efficiently or wield a heavy weapon without a strong center.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby marvin8 on Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:07 pm

Master Liu Ji Fa, Wu Style Taiji.

Uploaded on Feb 4, 2007
Master Liu Ji Fa teaching Wu Style Push Hands and using the Dan Tian to "fa jing" or issue power, at the recent double Dragon Alliance Masters Exhibition and training camp in Shanghai in Nov 2006:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvfXB_xXAis

Uploaded on Jan 28, 2010
http://www.susanamatthews.com/taichi-...
Shanghai China internal martial arts master Liu Ji Fa demonstrates a dantian rolling exercise after having a filling meal with participants in the 2009 Double Dragon Alliance Shanghai Training Camp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exnVzzN0v7Y
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:11 pm

Looks good. Thanks for sharing. Note the opening and closing of the chest and back that accompanies the movement of "the dan tian".
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby willie on Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:46 pm

charles wrote:
what i am talking about are powered helix. which means that the coils are created by dantain rotation.


I've been working on the script to an instructional video. The video is an introduction to "silk reeling", which is a foundational skill for most of Chen style Taijiquan - and I'd argue, some other styles as well.

Typically, the beginning student of Taijiquan is taught something called "silk reeling exercises" (chan si gong) and/or empty-hand forms. Once introduced to these, the student usually just keeps plugging along, practicing the same choreography they were taught over and over again. In the teaching of these things, the teacher often speaks of some mysterious things called "qi" and "the dan tian". Some teachers will speak of moving and "rotating the dan tian" and "circulating the qi".

Many students, faced with the void of any real experience or understanding of these things, and what these things practically involve, fill the holes with whatever the student thinks the teacher might have meant. A common result is that there are lots of practitioners - many of whom have been at it for a long time - who talk academically, and with authority, about qi, the dan tian, "rotating" the dan tian and silk reeling, but actually have little or no physical skill at doing the things they talk about - and no concrete way of teaching it to their students.

So, here's the question for y'all. How do you go about explaining/teaching this stuff to beginners in such a way that they actually develop skills in finite time.

For example, In concrete terms and language - for beginners and with absolute clarity,

1. What is "silk reeling" (chan si jin)?
2. What is its purpose - why bother with it or studying it?
3. what is "the dan tian"?
4. what has the dan tian have to do with silk reeling?
5. What is the oft-mentioned "dan tian rotation" - what physically is one doing and what is one "rotating"?
6. Are the dan tian and the waist the same thing? If not, what's the difference?
7. Do we even need to mention the "dan tian" - is development of "the dan tian" a requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?
8. Do we even need to mention "qi" - is "qi development" an essential requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?

It is surprising how often these things are mentioned, but how difficult it is to provide simple, direct, functional working descriptions of the terms that are constantly thrown around and how to effectively develop these things.


The moderator wants me to keep it more civil even through some of you guys are extremely rude.

So my question is, why did you quote my writing? Then you go to write this.

Many students, faced with the void of any real experience or understanding of these things, and what these things practically involve, fill the holes with whatever the student thinks the teacher might have meant. A common result is that there are lots of practitioners - many of whom have been at it for a long time - who talk academically, and with authority, about qi, the dan tian, "rotating" the dan tian and silk reeling, but actually have little or no physical skill at doing the things they talk about - and no concrete way of teaching it to their students.


Now i'm kind-of thinking that your talking about me?
So i will clarify.
There is zero confusion between what WHJ tells my sifu.
There is zero confusion between what my sifu tells me. I am his best and most martial student.
so now i questioned you and rightfully so. Then you go on to say that...
You created a video series in a way that you wish that you were taught

Does this mean that your teachers weren't any good? or perhaps they were wrong?
Because i'm not changing a damn thing that i was taught, it's already right.
Which brings me to GrahmB, so, weren't you the one who attacked my video stating that it was b.s. when in fact
the material was right from the best people in the world?

sorry Mr. XXXX but sometimes your guys get out of line.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:56 pm

...when in fact the material was right from the best people in the world?


What material? ...from what people? ...and why are they the best? :P
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby GrahamB on Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:59 pm

Borrowing Donald Trump's rhetoric isn't going to work for anybody except Donald Trump. And I'm not even sure it works for him.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:35 pm

GrahamB wrote:Borrowing Donald Trump's rhetoric isn't going to work for anybody except Donald Trump. And I'm not even sure it works for him.



You can make it about Trump but we both know it's not about that . When I first read the post I have to agree with Willie it seemed that Charles was inferring something , he could have started this post using any point that he wanted to make but he chose to take Willy's quote and start from there.

The subject itself was good the way it was started was not
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:59 pm

willie wrote:
charles wrote:
what i am talking about are powered helix. which means that the coils are created by dantain rotation.


So my question is, why did you quote my writing?


It was a recent comment by someone on the forum about "dan tian rotation". It could have been anyone's comment.

Now i'm kind-of thinking that your talking about me?


I wasn't. My apologies if it seemed like I was.

You created a video series in a way that you wish that you were taught


It's the way I wish it had been presented. Using that language, that approach.

Does this mean that your teachers weren't any good? or perhaps they were wrong?


It means that they didn't teach using language and methods that I think would have made the material more accessible to a wider number of people.

Being good at Taijiquan is a different skill set than being good at teaching Taijiquan. Many of the teachers I've met and/or studied with are widely considered to be good. That doesn't make me good, though.


Because i'm not changing a damn thing that i was taught


I'm not ware of anyone asking you to.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby willie on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:37 pm

GrahamB wrote:Borrowing Donald Trump's rhetoric isn't going to work for anybody except Donald Trump. And I'm not even sure it works for him.


Graham by going against the material in my video's "which you don't know and never even seen before" just makes you
look foolish because it was correct. you have just never seen that level before and with your bad attitude i'm pretty sure
that you never will. you should have thanked me for posting it but instead you made a fool of yourself.
I used some of that same stuff in free style at the last WHJ seminar and i can guarantee you that the material
turned a lot of Chinese heads.
So the moderator told me that i'm ranting and not posting martial arts. why should anyone even post with people like you around?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby willie on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:40 pm

charles wrote:
So my question is, why did you quote my writing?


It was a recent comment by someone on the forum about "dan tian rotation". It could have been anyone's comment.

Now i'm kind-of thinking that your talking about me?


I wasn't. My apologies if it seemed like I was.

You created a video series in a way that you wish that you were taught


It's the way I wish it had been presented. Using that language, that approach.

Does this mean that your teachers weren't any good? or perhaps they were wrong?


It means that they didn't teach using language and methods that I think would have made the material more accessible to a wider number of people.

Being good at Taijiquan is a different skill set than being good at teaching Taijiquan. Many of the teachers I've met and/or studied with are widely considered to be good. That doesn't make me good, though. [/quote]

O.K. fair enough.
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