The Dan Tian

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Dan Tian

Postby bruised on Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:53 pm

yfaway wrote:it should be made clear that feeling the Dantien rotation doesn't make one superior.

Eventually it develops into very loud squishy noise. It feels like a ball inside being squeezed and run from one side to another or up and down as the body turn horizontally or stretched vertically. I can't tell whether it goes diagonally. I have heard the same loud noise from four or five other people; they all have practiced for more than 5 years. The interesting thing is that there are many more people in my style having deeper understand of the art; they do feel the rotation, but don't generate the loud noise.

Here are a few other characteristics:

1. When the loud noise starts, the rotations in the Dantien area start controlling/triggering the breathing (in and out).

2. Besides the requirement of relaxation, the noise starts easier when the stomach is empty. If the stomach is full, it takes a bit longer.

3. More extensive stretching (expansion/contraction) --> faster time to get the Dantien rotation. The loud noise doesn't happen all the time. And when it happens, it is usually after some amount of time doing exercise/form.



I have question about the noise. does it sound like bubbles gurgling? or joints popping? I may have experienced both. let me explain further.

gurgle noise: bubbles in your guts moving around?

why are there bubbles in my guts? ideally there shouldn't be any if much if stomach emtpy, but due to our modern lives of sitting and breathing incorrectly, our trunks are super out of whack. for example if a rib is out of place or an injury occurs, and some structure is out of place, the misalignment will cause pressure differentials in the the body cavity. over time gass with gather at these low pressure pockets in the body (the low pressure pockets can cause guts/stomach etc to expand and not contract properly). this is why i think some people are so "gassy" i'm convinced it due to torso alignment.

if you happen to align a part of the torso and rid yourself of the pressure differential, you can expect to burp or fart. happens to me quite frequently because i'm going through a huge baselining project with my body. (attempting to align body so all movements work off the foundation of proper breath...)

when most of the pressure differentials are gone and alignment of torso gets better, the noises can go away because gas does not gather at low pressure point as much anymore.

loud joint popping sounds occur for me when body parts pop back into a different groove (hopefully resulting in more harmony and less tension overall). if joint continues to "pop" it means that there is a tension imbalanced in that system somewhere. I can imagine that a person can develop awareness but not proper alignment. if this is the case, repeated "popping" noises coming from a dantian area with a high degree of control could be a misaligned hip, rib or whatever. here control trumps awareness. hopefully awareness increases so that eventually alignment will happen and "pops" go away.

all of this obviously related to dantian because there are all factors of control and awareness of body (specifically torso). if you develop enough body awareness, and learn to really relax you can start sensing the subtle tension systems in your body. once you become familiar with how that feels, there are strategies to manipulate and balance these tensions.(orbits) at this point, if you can manipulate tensions in isolated systems, separate parts from of the whole (for sake of practice) , you should by that point have a good idea of your own dantian.

all movement works off some foundation. my goal was to connect earth to dantian, then use dantian as point of view, movement reference, and clear base foundation for all other movement. to do this requires body awareness, my method for increasing body awareness is to focus on breath. breath should be a coordinated, whole body exercise. and let me finish this ramble by saying all this doesn't necessarily make you a better fighter. you should feel more efficient in your movements in all of life and that is the key to health. efficiency is following the middle way.

to fight better, you just need to practice more real fighting.

robert wrote:Learning to take an external movement and internalize it takes a lot of practice.


to me internalizing an external movement means using the dantian as the reference point to move your body.

i think this is why talking about the dan tian is so difficult, because i think it's about consciousness/point of view. now we get into la la land where word only go so far.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:39 am

bruised wrote:
yfaway wrote:...I have heard the same loud noise from four or five other people; they all have practiced for more than 5 years. The interesting thing is that there are many more people in my style having deeper understand of the art; they do feel the rotation, but don't generate the loud noise.



I have question about the noise. does it sound like bubbles gurgling? or joints popping? I may have experienced both. let me explain further.


I don't want to cut your discussion short, but I think it important to realize that yfaway mentions that in the style he practices, Taoist Tai Chi, there is no formal discussion or training of the dan tian: what he is describing are individuals' self-directed experiences/interpretations. You are then comparing those self-directed experiences/interpretations to your own self-directed experiences/interpretations. That is not to say that things that one experiences are irrelevant or without value, but, I will say, I've yet to meet anyone that I consider to have good skills who's "dan tian" makes any sort of audible sound.

to me internalizing an external movement means using the dantian as a reference point to move your body.


What does that mean in practical terms. In what way do you use your dan tian as a reference point in moving your body?

i think this is why talking about the dan tian is so difficult, because i think it's about consciousness/point of view. now we get into la la land where word only go so far.


I agree that the dan tian can be a specific "point of view", or specific way of "framing" things, but I don't find it difficult to discuss adequately nor do I find that there has to be anything "la la land" about it. Discussion of it can be very specific, and typically is in formal education by those well-versed in its training.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:24 am

Image
http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php
According to ancient Daoist energetic anatomy and physiology, humans have three important energy centers that store and emit energy similar to the same way a battery stores and emits energy. These three centers are called the Three Dantians. The Three Dantians are strategically positioned along the Taiji Pole in order to facilitate maximum energy transference


a lot of information from a TCM point of view.

interesting reading for some, for others it might help to clarify
things.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby yeniseri on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:57 am

Even though I may reference the TCM view, I usually phrase a response as follows;
a. You have a hollow inside ??? enclosed medium
b, Based on what you eat or drink the intestinal milieu responds based on the type of quality of said contents (of stomach)
c. Add principle of osmotic pressure with (b), there will be "movement' (there has to be for elimation) or else stasis/blockage (both literally and figuratively) remember constipation (literally) or the end result of continued "stagnation" will be some type of stomach or cancer problem (middle jiao) Excuse the hybrid language of TCM with modern anatomical references ;D
6. Then add the additional practices of health/wellness of whatever kind and one become aware of certain pulses in certain area of where the 3-5 dantians reside.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby bruised on Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:56 am

charles wrote:
bruised wrote:
yfaway wrote:...I have heard the same loud noise from four or five other people; they all have practiced for more than 5 years. The interesting thing is that there are many more people in my style having deeper understand of the art; they do feel the rotation, but don't generate the loud noise.



I have question about the noise. does it sound like bubbles gurgling? or joints popping? I may have experienced both. let me explain further.


I don't want to cut your discussion short, but I think it important to realize that yfaway mentions that in the style he practices, Taoist Tai Chi, there is no formal discussion or training of the dan tian: what he is describing are individuals' self-directed experiences/interpretations. You are then comparing those self-directed experiences/interpretations to your own self-directed experiences/interpretations. That is not to say that things that one experiences are irrelevant or without value, but, I will say, I've yet to meet anyone that I consider to have good skills who's "dan tian" makes any sort of audible sound.

to me internalizing an external movement means using the dantian as a reference point to move your body.


What does that mean in practical terms. In what way do you use your dan tian as a reference point in moving your body?

i think this is why talking about the dan tian is so difficult, because i think it's about consciousness/point of view. now we get into la la land where word only go so far.


I agree that the dan tian can be a specific "point of view", or specific way of "framing" things, but I don't find it difficult to discuss adequately nor do I find that there has to be anything "la la land" about it. Discussion of it can be very specific, and typically is in formal education by those well-versed in its training.


no wonder i gravitate towards yfaway's descriptions, i think i'm in line with Toaist tai chi concepts. totally hear ya on the "comparing those self-directed experiences/interpretations to your own self-directed experiences/interpretations" but it really is helping me personally.

What does that mean in practical terms. In what way do you use your dan tian as a reference point in moving your body?

when i used to throw a punch, the punch would come from the point of view or perspective from my eyes. my consciousness would be literally "in" my eyes. my eyes seemed like the center of my body or my main reference point in my movements. such a visually dependent creature i was, so distracted and insensitive to other inputs. but input into what though? mind?

now my consciousness feels like a cloud. i can move it around or focus it to a point, and it can take the perspective of different places (inside or eventually outside my body or from my opponent's body even!, maybe out of body expeince 3rd person perspective grand theft auto style?). who says mind has to stay in the head? if consciousness or awareness is the sum byproduct of either chemical or electrical activity or whatever we are directly connected to, there is a lot of that going on all over our body, not just in the brain.

even though i am my dantian, it feels like the dantian throws the punch, not my "brain".

if i think about it further, the dantian is not a real "thing" per say, but i think why it was developed and divided as such is for teaching/ idea passing purposes. language is no where near perfect, no matter how hard we try, but trying to find common ground to convey ideas helps, no? this is what i mean by lala land. no way to directly measure conciousness or awareness, only indirectly at best, and with funny language.

to me the lower dantian is the sum point or average of the two legs (and tailbone) and what sits on top of it. if you can reduce the body in this way, you can mentally "isolate" the bottom of the body. the upper dantian is the sum point or average of the arms and head and what this point sits on. the middle dantian is the sum point or average of the torso or the two other dantians.

when i reduce the body to 3 points, i can attempt to balance the 3 points with each other in a way that is comprehend-able, instead of trying to balance every part of my body, overwhelming!
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:33 am

bruised wrote: i think i'm in line with Toaist tai chi concepts.


My introduction to Tai Chi was at Taoist Tai Chi (registered trademark). I suggest you do an internet search on "Taoist Tai Chi", watch a video or two, read a bit of what it is about. You might not want to align yourself with that.

now my consciousness feels like a cloud. i can move it around or focus it to a point, and it can take the perspective of different places (inside or eventually outside my body or in my opponent's body even!).


I guess I've never given a great deal of thought about where my consciousness resides. Scientific evidence seems to pretty strongly suggest that the root of consciousness in the the brain.

who says mind has to stay in the head? if consciousness or awareness is the sum byproduct of either chemical or electrical activity or whatever we are directly connected to, there is a lot of that going on all over our body, not just in the brain.


True, but I think you are confusing "consciousness" with external "inputs" or "stimulus". External "inputs" come from our 5 senses but are primarily processed in the brain, at least as I understand it. "Intent" - focusing one's attention on something specific - is, as I understand it, a function of consciousness.

even though i am my dantian, it feels like the dantian throws the punch, not my "brain".


I am not my dan tian: my dan tian is one part of me. I'm pretty sure that if one were brain dead, the dan tian wouldn't do anything at all, including not throwing a punch.

to me the lower dantian is the sum point or average of the two legs (and tailbone) and what sits on top of it. if you can reduce the body in this way, you can mentally "isolate" the bottom of the body.


Why would one want to mentally isolate the bottom of the body? For what practical purpose? Traditionally, internal martial arts are about the antithesis of that, coordinating all of the parts of the body.

the upper dantian is the sum point or average of the arms and head and what this point sits on. the middle dantian is the sum point or average of the torso or the two other dantians.


The sum or "average" of what, exactly?

when i reduce the body to 3 points, i can attempt to balance the 3 points with each other in a way that is comprehend-able, instead of trying to balance every part of my body, overwhelming!


What is involved in balancing those three points? What does "balancing" them entail?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby bruised on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:41 am

my replies in bolded text

charles wrote:
bruised wrote: i think i'm in line with Toaist tai chi concepts.


My introduction to Tai Chi was at Taoist Tai Chi (registered trademark). I suggest you do an internet search on "Taoist Tai Chi", watch a video or two, read a bit of what it is about. You might not want to align yourself with that.

hmm icic. what i meant was tai chi from a doasit perspective.

now my consciousness feels like a cloud. i can move it around or focus it to a point, and it can take the perspective of different places (inside or eventually outside my body or in my opponent's body even!).


I guess I've never given a great deal of thought about where my consciousness resides. Scientific evidence seems to pretty strongly suggest that the root of consciousness in the the brain.

isnt it funny we have to try to use our consioisness to examine the consciousness? It's like a ruler trying to measure itself. Some western medicine would agree with what you say, but this is not concrete IMO the study of consciousness is mostly philosophical at this point. maybe consciousness resides nowhere physically. I think it is a non physical phenomenon and hints and other things that are "real" but not of this physical world) it maybe something that is not directly measurable. what if than? the question of consciousness is sometimes refered to as the "hard problem" or "original question" and might be the deepest distinction between setting up "east vs west" ideologies. i think it comes from the idea that if you ask "why" after any question, the deepest "why" will emerge which is: what is consciousness. there is no right or wrong here. you can have no view, or pick a view. once you pick a view and want to be consistent in your thinking it kinda sets you up on how you see the world and your relevance to it

who says mind has to stay in the head? if consciousness or awareness is the sum byproduct of either chemical or electrical activity or whatever we are directly connected to, there is a lot of that going on all over our body, not just in the brain.


True, but I think you are confusing "consciousness" with external "inputs" or "stimulus". External "inputs" come from our 5 senses but are primarily processed in the brain, at least as I understand it. "Intent" - focusing one's attention on something specific - is, as I understand it, a function of consciousness.

this is where our different foundations of knowledge makes us disagree? how about internal inputs? If the brain is nothing more than tissue with lots of nerves in it, through out the body there are places with high nerve concentration. i dont' think there is much differece between nerves here or there? if the brain has a level of consciousness than maybe other nerve centers have levels of consciousness too but lower? do they have to talk to each other?

even though i am my dantian, it feels like the dantian throws the punch, not my "brain".


I am not my dan tian: my dan tian is one part of me. I'm pretty sure that if one were brain dead, the dan tian wouldn't do anything at all, including not throwing a punch.

see previous bold comment. what part is it in you exactly?

to me the lower dantian is the sum point or average of the two legs (and tailbone) and what sits on top of it. if you can reduce the body in this way, you can mentally "isolate" the bottom of the body.


Why would one want to mentally isolate the bottom of the body? For what practical purpose? Traditionally, internal martial arts are about the antithesis of that, coordinating all of the parts of the body.

not permanently but for the purpose of training. one first think about throwing a punch by separating the movement to break down into smaller, more comprehendible movements. after mastery, one should not need to think about punching anymore, same with dantian, goal to eventually think of whole body as one, but that one huge fist step, lets break that up into smaller steps first?

the upper dantian is the sum point or average of the arms and head and what this point sits on. the middle dantian is the sum point or average of the torso or the two other dantians.


The sum or "average" of what, exactly?

consciousness or awareness....

when i reduce the body to 3 points, i can attempt to balance the 3 points with each other in a way that is comprehend-able, instead of trying to balance every part of my body, overwhelming!


What is involved in balancing those three points? What does "balancing" them entail?


awareness of each "other." break up the whole to help comprehend, then once comprehended, all becomes one again with more awareness. how to measure? lalaland!
(fyi, take all this with grain of salt, my passion for all of this mostly comes from 3yrs of intesive body awareness meditation (1-3 hours daily)) i know i'm just starting but i feel that my body awareness is more developed than most (this is not talking specifically about martal arts, but life) :P
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:05 pm

The first clip above is just use of the pecs agains a co operative student with hard arms
What he shows in the second clip is good stuff
These are things I teach with a totally different explanation
The way he says it is a really simple way of explanation
Saying that he doesn't have a lot of spinal freedom
The other point I find humorous is the translator talking about health while dealing with the flu
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby bruised on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:06 pm

Also, about physical dantian balancing. I see this as purely biological, physically connected body parts which can be misaligned in many ways.the goal is inner body harmony which I translate into inner tensions being balanced or eliminated.

Harmony: I see as the system spending little energy to maintain hemostasis. So what I mean to say is that tentions can exist in hemoatasis, but if you eliminate the tention all together your mind is quieted to be more sensitive to other sensations.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:14 pm

bruised wrote:
robert wrote:Learning to take an external movement and internalize it takes a lot of practice.

to me internalizing an external movement means using the dantian as a reference point to move your body.

Internalizing a movement is difficult to describe and I don't think it can be taught. At best a good teacher points the way and a student just keeps working at it until they get it. Not everyone gets it. When I talk about internal I mean the body is connected and when the body is connected you can use the connection to move the body. I tend to think of dantian, but dantian, kua/hips, and mingmen/yao are all moving together and closely related and talking about the dantian is often shorthand for a number of things that are going on.

bruised wrote:
i think this is why talking about the dan tian is so difficult, because i think it's about consciousness/point of view. now we get into la la land where word only go so far.

I disagree. Although there isn't a physical structure that you can point to that doesn't mean there isn't a function. That is why it is important to have a good instructor. There are also sensations associated with it. If people have worked with a good instructor they can discuss it on a forum like this.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby bruised on Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:18 pm

my reply in bolded text

robert wrote:
bruised wrote:
robert wrote:Learning to take an external movement and internalize it takes a lot of practice.

to me internalizing an external movement means using the dantian as a reference point to move your body.

Internalizing a movement is difficult to describe and I don't think it can be taught. At best a good teacher points the way and a student just keeps working at it until they get it. Not everyone gets it. When I talk about internal I mean the body is connected and when the body is connected you can use the connection to move the body.


like body connected with itself...?

I tend to think of dantian, but dantian, kua/hips, and migmen/yao are all moving together and closely related and talking about the dantian is often shorthand for a number of things that are going on.

this is could be what i mean with sum reduction


bruised wrote:
i think this is why talking about the dan tian is so difficult, because i think it's about consciousness/point of view. now we get into la la land where word only go so far.

I disagree. Although there isn't a physical structure that you can point to that doesn't mean there isn't a function. That is why it is important to have a good instructor. There are also sensations associated with it. If people have worked with a good instructor they can discuss it on a forum like this.


I think it sounds like we mostly agree. do you think dantian is only relevant to IMA? can only be taught by IMA instructors? how about the originator of the concepts? it seem through out history and many cultures, old dudes sitting in caves by themselves meditating all come to very similar ideas. i believe in an eternal, ethereal knowledge. it's not the best, fastest, or easiest path but *shrug*

i talk about dantain as it relates to consciousness, awareness and movement. i don't feel this is specific to MA. just more specific labels and divisions.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby robert on Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:49 pm

bruised wrote:I think it sounds like we mostly agree. do you think dantian is only relevant to IMA? can only be taught by IMA instructors?

No, to my knowledge the concept predates IMA.

bruised wrote:how about the originator of the concpets?

I don't know who originated it, but it is referred to in early daoist writings.

bruised wrote:it seem through out history and many cultures, old dudes sitting in caves by themselves meditating all come to very similar ideas.

What cultures besides the Chinese place so much emphasis on the dantian? I thought the early writers were part of society, librarians and the like. As I understand it in the daoist tradition people are trained in various techniques and later in life may go off and become a hermit. How many people found these things on their own? The only places I see anything like IMA type movements are places that have had contact with and have been influenced by China. From what I've seen the body mechanics that are used in IMA need to be shown to you.

bruised wrote:i believe in an eternal, etheral knowledge.

Personally I don't buy into the two world hypothesis, I don't see any evidence for it, but I like Cornford's concept of a collective consciousness.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby bruised on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:23 pm

my reply in bolded text


robert wrote:
bruised wrote:I think it sounds like we mostly agree. do you think dantian is only relevant to IMA? can only be taught by IMA instructors?

No, to my knowledge the concept predates IMA.

the inner realm and inner strength concepts have been around as long as humans methinks, back then we weren't so distracted by the outter and had more time to explore the inner. so i agree that the majority of people in the modern world will have a hell of a time developing a dantian today. hell, most people are so numb to their own bodies that i consider it our current human condition. so distracted by technology and 'information" that people are no longer sensitive to the natural way or their own bodies. we all are all just star stuff and matter, and some of this matter we are directly connected to by nerves, even then we forget! true kung fu is all about recognizing energy no? dantian concepts help us master our matter. being sensitive enough through conditioning to be able to feel all the sensations we forgot we can feel (tensions and orbits yalls!) developing dantin is precise and sensitive matter control and then understanding it to express

bruised wrote:how about the originator of the concepts?

I don't know who originated it, but it is referred to in early daoist writings.

how do you think dantian #1 was discovered? would it not be replicable? it was a one time gift from gods or aliens to a very special person? j/k sure, you can follow trails of knowledge flow east. but i would bet there is not one originator but many all over the planet who have discovered inner power concepts based on the same as this chinese branded dantian. even in our modern day, you have hippies that have stumbled on to dantian concepts and rebranded it with some bad marketing. I think i'm one of them, but i'm choosing to go to the best source material for efficiency (traditional texts)

bruised wrote:it seem through out history and many cultures, old dudes sitting in caves by themselves meditating all come to very similar ideas.

What cultures besides the Chinese place so much emphasis on the dantian? I thought the early writers were part of society, librarians and the like. As I understand it in the daoist tradition people are trained in various techniques and later in life may go off and become a hermit. How many people found these things on their own? The only places I see anything like IMA type movements are places that have had contact with and have been influenced by China. From what I've seen the body mechanics that are used in IMA need to be shown to you.

they may not call it dantian, but just off the top of my head: india, polynesia, peru, egypt, afrika and prob more. I think even pre hippocratic west had some concepts like dantian. most seem to refer to breath relation. not the same? you develop dantian, you will know that breath is a huge part of it. you can not master your matter without mastering the breath, i'll bet you a beer on that! call bullshit on me because i know it sounds ridiculous, but i stumbled upon my "dantian" by accident. 3 years breathwork and standing meditation experience helped get me to this point and its still just the tip of the iceberg. even meditation was something i stumbled onto by accident.

what are " IMA type movements?" why can they not be written down do you think? please link me, i would like to try.

I do understand the follies of the blind leading the blind but i'm not that blind. it is independant from my lack of external martial arts training.
also, its the internet. still not as bad as fake news these days haha.

but with that all being said, i do understand why it is so difficult to learn, but doesn't mean only established experts can talk about it, but they prob do a way better job. i need to meet them in person to feel.

i don't feel bad for the dudes who read stupid shit on the internet and do stupid shit. don't read my shit and take it as anything more than something to consider. I hope my rambles can spark something for someone. the mixing of ideas is how we evolve imo. maybe thats why current society is such crap! ;)


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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby bruised on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:26 pm

my reply in bolded text

bruised wrote:
robert wrote:
bruised wrote:I think it sounds like we mostly agree. do you think dantian is only relevant to IMA? can only be taught by IMA instructors?

No, to my knowledge the concept predates IMA.

the inner realm and inner strength concepts have been around as long as humans methinks, back then we weren't so distracted by the outter and had more time to explore the inner. so i agree that the majority of people in the modern world will have a hell of a time developing a dantian today. hell, most people are so numb to their own bodies that i consider it our current human condition. so distracted by technology and 'information" that people are no longer sensitive to the natural way or their own bodies. we all are all just star stuff and matter, and some of this matter we are directly connected to by nerves, even then we forget! true kung fu is all about recognizing energy no? dantian concepts help us master our matter. being sensitive enough through conditioning to be able to feel all the sensations we forgot we can feel (tensions and orbits yalls!) developing dantin is precise and sensitive matter control and then understanding it to express

bruised wrote:how about the originator of the concepts?

I don't know who originated it, but it is referred to in early daoist writings.

how do you think dantian #1 was discovered? would it not be replicable? it was a one time gift from gods or aliens to a very special person? j/k sure, you can follow trails of knowledge flow east. but i would bet there is not one originator but many all over the planet who have discovered inner power concepts based on the same as this chinese branded dantian. even in our modern day, you have hippies that have stumbled on to dantian concepts and rebranded it with some bad marketing. I think i'm one of them, but i'm choosing to go to the best source material for efficiency (traditional texts)

bruised wrote:it seem through out history and many cultures, old dudes sitting in caves by themselves meditating all come to very similar ideas.


robert wrote:What cultures besides the Chinese place so much emphasis on the dantian? I thought the early writers were part of society, librarians and the like. As I understand it in the daoist tradition people are trained in various techniques and later in life may go off and become a hermit. How many people found these things on their own? The only places I see anything like IMA type movements are places that have had contact with and have been influenced by China. From what I've seen the body mechanics that are used in IMA need to be shown to you.


they may not call it dantian, but just off the top of my head: india, polynesia, peru, egypt, afrika and prob more. I think even pre hippocratic west had some concepts like dantian. most seem to refer to breath relation. not the same? you develop dantian, you will know that breath is a huge part of it. you can not master your matter without mastering the breath, i'll bet you a beer on that! call bullshit on me because i know it sounds ridiculous, but i stumbled upon my "dantian" by accident. 3 years breathwork and standing meditation experience helped get me to this point and its still just the tip of the iceberg. even meditation was something i stumbled onto by accident.

what are " IMA type movements?" why can they not be written down do you think? please link me, i would like to try.

I do understand the follies of the blind leading the blind but i'm not that blind. it is independant from my lack of external martial arts training.
also, its the internet. still not as bad as fake news these days haha.

but with that all being said, i do understand why it is so difficult to learn, but doesn't mean only established experts can talk about it, but they prob do a way better job. i need to meet them in person to feel.

i don't feel bad for the dudes who read stupid shit on the internet and do stupid shit. don't read my shit and take it as anything more than something to consider. I hope my rambles can spark something for someone. the mixing of ideas is how we evolve imo. maybe thats why current society is such crap! ;)


Last edited by bruised on Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:34 pm

bruised wrote: you develop dantian, you will know that breath is a huge part of it. you can not master your matter without mastering the breath, i'll bet you a beer on that! call bullshit on me because i know it sounds ridiculous, but i stumbled upon my "dantian" by accident. 3 years breathwork and standing meditation experience helped get me to this point and its still just the tip of the iceberg. even meditation was something i stumbled onto by accident.


And that is really why I started this thread, this conversation. There are commonly two different things that are being referred to when "people" discuss "the dan tian". One is related to the physical stuff of the abdomen; the other is related to energetic and/or spiritual development. In my opinion, they eventually become different facets of the same thing, but to start with, learning about them, they are, or can be, two separate studies.

I spent a decade doing regular standing meditation work that involved both regular and "reverse" abdominal breathing. That work did a variety of things, most notably developing the ability to "let loose" or "relax". For me, it did little to "develop the dan tian", per se, either the physical thing or the energetic thing. (I've had the occasional discussion with a few long time practitioners for whom it did, though not many.) By contrast, the sitting meditation I was taught, only one of a number of different sitting meditation practices, did not focus on breathing at all, but to breath naturally, gradually breathing more and more slowly, lightly and shallowly to eventually reach a point of almost no obvious breathing at all. After four years of THAT, stuff happened, stuff related to "energetics". I've discussed that with a variety of people who have gone through similar training and it is a common path with common sensations, one that is sufficiently well charted.

That stuff, is very different than what is typical of physical "dan tian development" as a result of, for example, prolonged silk reeling practice.

what are " IMA type movements?" why can they not be written down do you think? please link me, i would like to try.


They can be written down and have been. There are many practices for leading a student who puts in the work to understand these things for her or him self. These things are experiential: an effective teacher will guide the student to practices that can bring about those experiences. Understanding and skill are derived from those experiences. Different experiences, different understanding and skills.
Last edited by charles on Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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