The Dan Tian

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:07 pm

My point is that often people apply terms that sound scientific, but are applied incorrectly, so that, other than the words, it isn't science or physics. A good example of that is Chen Manching's use of "science" in one of his published books. (It's been a long time since I've read it.) It sound all scientific, but holds no validity from the perspective of hard science.


Does it?

I beg to differ


For quite a few years, I have been reading and re-reading Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises,1 written by my first T’ai-Chi teacher, Cheng Man-ch’ing (1900–1975). I consider most of this book to be very clear and filled with valuable information. However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand. This essay ends with Prof. Cheng saying, “This treatise reveals the secret of many generations of T’ai Chi Ch’uan masters. I hope the practitioner will pay special attention to this!” He evidently considered this essay, which deals in part with neutralization, to be very important and chose to use physics as the main expository tool.
http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

Do you have a PHD in physics and teach it?

Chuckrow has a Ph.D. in experimental physics from NYU and taught physics at NYU, The Cooper Union, Fieldston, and other schools for forty-three years.

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/Abouttheteacher.html

My point is that often people apply terms that sound scientific, but are applied incorrectly, so that, other than the words, it isn't science or physics.


care to comment on his work? is it correct or incorrect?

Many of the people I work with are engineers mech and electrical.
All are American Chinese most having emigrated here long ago. I only mention this to indacate that those I work with
come from backgrounds were they can bridge the gap, in one sense but are unable to in another. Makes it very interesting
at times.


Today in talking to a mech engineer I asked about some of the things mentioned here.

He agreed with me in that physics can be used to explain a lot of the things that people question, but when mixed with verbiage from the Chinese culture it can be problematic unless one either has an in depth understanding of the etymology of the word how its used and in what context, or a very in depth understanding of physics, or a mind that can adapt and see how the theories relate, or could be related to something like taiji.


We talked about “dantain” as it's commonly used, the component words and so forth.
It’s not so straightforward, as one would think…

You’ve mentioned what you feel are others misunderstandings
with out posting your own understanding.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby littlepanda on Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:43 pm

Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:
Every exercise as far as I know transfers power from the dantian (torso) to the arms.

If you look at squatting monkey, focus on looking at the hands and how they coordinate with the body's contracting and expanding, difference in squatting monkey the hands are first moved away from the dantian and back.

1.13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfwLXkMzTQQ (Yueh Gui Ning's son performing "pi quan" notice when he contracts the hands come close to the body and when he expands they move away.

Not sure if this answers your question, but this is how I understand it.

Yes, dun hou shi, isolates the dantian, but all of the movements, teach dantian how to coordinate with your movements.


jon,
thanks for clarification.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby littlepanda on Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:51 pm

charles wrote:
Nice video. Thanks for posting it. Looks like a great exercise.

Xiaopanda,

Is is clear to you from watching the video how he connects the arms to the dan tian?


not really. will have to find a DXYQ teacher first.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:02 pm

littlepanda wrote:
charles wrote:
Nice video. Thanks for posting it. Looks like a great exercise.

Xiaopanda,

Is is clear to you from watching the video how he connects the arms to the dan tian?


not really. will have to find a DXYQ teacher first.


I am starting to teach in BKK probably X2 a year (until I locate there permanently) you can always flick me an email to [email protected]
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby jtan on Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:17 pm

I will throw in my $.02....

The dan then is a specific form of muscle development in the abdomen achieved after certain exercises and a certain state of mind. Much like moving your little toe. Which is where the problem comes ... no one can describe how to move your little toe.

From my perspective - everyone is talking about drills. But in basketball or soccer, knowing drills for shooting or dribbling is not the same as playing. So while you may say 'root' or 'ground path' while technically correct in physics, it just so much nonsense when a guy is hanging all over you and you're trying to score. Until you have a certain shared experience, there is nothing much to talk about.

And then of course, just because Andre Agassi teaches you how to hit a tennis ball, doesn't mean that you can hit a tennis ball like Agassi.

Ymmv.

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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:45 pm

The dan then is a specific form of muscle development in the abdomen achieved after certain exercises and a certain state of mind.


Interesting does a boxer have this "specific form of muscle development"
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:59 pm



You'll notice that on some of the mid-air rotations there is a combination of somersault rotation and twisting along the (lengthwise) body-axis. This can be analyzed as a problem in angular momentum conservation. To set up this analysis first consider the figure below showing an example somersault plus twist combination [1].

http://www.real-world-physics-problems. ... stics.html

Image

I'm a mechanical engineer. I'd really, really like to be able to reduce the whole of everything in the universe into nice, neat, simple to understand equations. Unfortunately, it can't be.


I guess not :-\
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:32 pm

The dan then is a specific form of muscle development in the abdomen achieved after certain exercises and a certain state of mind. Much like moving your little toe. Which is where the problem comes ... no one can describe how to move your little toe.


I respectfully disagree. It has nothing to do with muscle development. Dantian is a name of a place, well, three different places actually. Ok, the Dantian is a a term from daoist practice. The Lower Dantian in daoist practice had nothing to do with muscle development. It's just a tiny spot, a place in your body where you store essence and turn essence into Qi. You can feel this spot without any physical practice. Only feeling and awareness is necessary. If you speak about abdomen in a broader sense, please use Hara instead or any other more suitable term.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:51 pm

It has nothing to do with muscle development. Dantian is a name of a place, well, three different places actually. Ok, the Dantian is a a term from daoist practice. The Lower Dantian in daoist practice had nothing to do with muscle development. It's just a tiny spot, a place in your body where you store essence and turn essence into Qi.


Which is exactly what my friend mentioned today. He mentioned it as a place, where something is stored.

Although he mentioned this, this small spot can and does move. As you've mentioned it has to do with awareness which one will note
once other conditions have been met. Which is why some teachers will not talk much about it preferring to develop the conditions first
and then slowly point out something that is already happening. Its something that one already has but may not be aware of or able to use.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:56 pm

I wrote:

My point is that often people apply terms that sound scientific, but are applied incorrectly, so that, other than the words, it isn't science or physics. A good example of that is Chen Manching's use of "science" in one of his published books. (It's been a long time since I've read it.) It sound all scientific, but holds no validity from the perspective of hard science.


You responded by quoting a physicist who actually studied with CMC who you quoted as stating,

windwalker wrote:
... However, even though my Ph.D. is in physics, I found Treatise 7, entitled “Strength and Physics,” very hard to understand.


http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

Later, in the same article, he states, "I decided that the only way for me to satisfactorily understand this important subject matter was to recast parts of it into my own words". He continues to say, "Nevertheless, Y. K. Chen’s [a different author, not CMC] useful method of analysis will be employed in Section 6 [of Mr. Row's "recast"] to treat parts of Treatise 7 [CMC's writing]."

In summary, a PHD physicist, who actually studied with CMC directly, could not understand the section of CMC's book called "Strength and Physics". He eventually used the (corrected) analysis method presented by another author - who's application of physics Row discovered was incorrect - to apply to what CMC wrote. The physicist then "recast" what CMC wrote into an article of his own. If you compare what CMC wrote to the content of the physicists article, you'll see that there is little resemblance between the two.

Thus, there are three "scientific" articles, one of which is unintelligible to a PHD physicist (Row), a student of the author, one which is found to be incorrect and a third by the PHD physicist. It appears in the example you presented, two out of three "scientific" applications are incorrect, supporting my initial statement.


care to comment on his work? is it correct or incorrect?


I'd seen his article before, but never read it in great detail. To comment on it, I'd have to go through it in detail.

they can bridge the gap, in one sense but are unable to in another.


With what sorts of things do they have trouble bridging the gap?

He agreed with me in that physics can be used to explain a lot of the things that people question, but when mixed with verbiage from the Chinese culture it can be problematic unless one either has an in depth understanding of the etymology of the word how its used and in what context, or a very in depth understanding of physics, or a mind that can adapt and see how the theories relate, or could be related to something like taiji.


I agree that physics can be used to explain a lot of things, but it is rarely applied in such a way as to be meaningful.

Did CMC have an in-depth understanding of Western physics? Sufficient for him to apply it appropriately to the problems at hand?

We talked about “dantain” as it's commonly used, the component words and so forth.
It’s not so straightforward, as one would think…


That is what I stated earlier. Part of the reason for this discussion.

You’ve mentioned what you feel are others misunderstandings with out posting your own understanding.
[/quote]

I mentioned a few things that, in my experience, many don't understand well. There are others that I'm not sure I want to get into right now: there's more than enough to discuss as it is.

I've stated that in practical terms, in what I've been taught and experienced, the dan tian can be approached as two things. One is the physical "stuff" of the abdomen. The other is less tangible, the more traditional "energetic center" found in the abdomen. After sufficient training, they are really one thing, as Bao points out. Practically, they are often trained independently, at least in some segments of Chen Taijiquan.

I've mentioned that silk reeling is a method for coordinating the parts of the body in motion. So far, I've stated CXW's approach to explaining what the method involves - the three techniques. (There are other methods that I'm not going to get into.) I've given examples of "shun" and "ni" as it applies to turning of the arms/palms and how that relates to opening and closing.

I started to write about the practical implementation of the three techniques: two (or three, depending upon the teacher and method) "circles". I started to write about the 8 combinations and permutations of the two circles and that virtually every movement in the form is one of those combinations or permutations. Those two (or three) circles form the foundation of nearly everything else in Chen Taijiquan: forms, push hands, applications... I started to write about teaching "by the numbers". I decided to hold off on those discussions as there is already lots to discuss.
Last edited by charles on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:12 pm

windwalker wrote:I guess not :-\


Please provide the equation that governs how you will react when someone performs "Brush Knee" on you.

Please provide the equation for "love" or "devotion".

Please provide me the equation that tells who, at any given time, will be logged into this forum. And so on.

Lots of phenomena we experience can't be put into nice neat equations that accurately describe and predict that phenomena. At no time did I say that NO phenomena can be described by nice neat equations. Some can, some can't.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:27 pm

In summary, a PHD physicist, who actually studied with CMC directly, could not understand the section of CMC's book called "Strength and Physics". He eventually used the (corrected) analysis method presented by another author - who's application of physics Row discovered was incorrect - to apply to what CMC wrote. The physicist then "recast" what CMC wrote into an article of his own. If you compare what CMC wrote to the content of the physicists article, you'll see that there is little resemblance between the two.


Read both, would not agree with your assessment.

I would say he used the others to help him understanding of it, "how to do it" and then as most do re wrote it in his own understanding.
I can say that in my own reading of CMCs book long ago, I did not understand it then, nor could make it work.
In time I could make it work, followed by an understanding of it. Seems very clear now...


There are parts that he has written on that I do not agree with, it seems like he left out things.
Not something I wish to say much about online not knowing if it was intentional or not.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:33 pm

Non-discussion topic.
Last edited by charles on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:36 pm

charles wrote:
windwalker wrote:I guess not :-\


Please provide the equation that governs how you will react when someone performs "Brush Knee" on you.

Please provide the equation for "love" or "devotion".

Please provide me the equation that tells who, at any given time, will be logged into this forum. And so on.

Lots of phenomena we experience can't be put into nice neat equations that accurately describe and predict that phenomena. At no time did I say that NO phenomena can be described by nice neat equations. Some can, some can't.


Please provide the equation that governs how you will react when someone performs "Brush Knee" on you.


wow, no need. To those I work with and others I've met its very reproducible I do use physics to help explain the what and why.
As to the other things, I think science is working on the chemistry of emotion

probability would cover the likely hood of when you will be logged on or not.
"the extent to which an event is likely to occur, measured by the ratio of the favorable cases to the whole number of cases possible."

What is now a "phenomena" ceases to be one,
once an understanding is reached.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:46 pm

windwalker wrote:probability would cover the likely hood of when you will be logged on or not.
"the extent to which an event is likely to occur, measured by the ratio of the favorable cases to the whole number of cases possible."


I didn't ask for the probability. I asked for who will be logged in at any time. Not the probability of who might be or with what certainty.


So at this point, it appears the we agree that some things can be described adequately by physics.

I suggest that many times those attempting to do so do not do so in a way that adequately describes the situation. You suggest they do. We each have supporting examples of our point of view. I think we've gone as far as we can on the subject of applying physics to explain martial arts.
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