The Dan Tian

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The Dan Tian

Postby windwalker on Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:17 pm

follow up:

I had asked a friend, a native speaker for his thoughts on the word "dantain"

Dan originally means the immortal drug. For human beings, it means internal material which has the power of "immortal drug", or simiply "energy". Tian means field or area. So "Dan Tian" means the place to store energy. The place aslo called "Qi Hai", the sea of Qi. many people think that place is to store Qi.


This reflects the way the taiji group in China I trained with used the term,
sometimes refering to the use of "dantain qi" or qi from the dantain being used.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Patrick on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:24 pm

Why should we use "physics" or "mechanical engineering" at all, when some other disciplines are much more adequate?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:07 pm

windwalker wrote:
The dan then is a specific form of muscle development in the abdomen achieved after certain exercises and a certain state of mind.


Interesting does a boxer have this "specific form of muscle development"


Nope, especially in regards to DXYQ dantian it is completely different from just developing the abdomen muscles.

A DXYQ practitioners dan tian is round and inflated like a ball and should be able to freely rotate in several directions.

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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:13 pm

Bao wrote:
The dan then is a specific form of muscle development in the abdomen achieved after certain exercises and a certain state of mind. Much like moving your little toe. Which is where the problem comes ... no one can describe how to move your little toe.


I respectfully disagree. It has nothing to do with muscle development. Dantian is a name of a place, well, three different places actually. Ok, the Dantian is a a term from daoist practice. The Lower Dantian in daoist practice had nothing to do with muscle development. It's just a tiny spot, a place in your body where you store essence and turn essence into Qi. You can feel this spot without any physical practice. Only feeling and awareness is necessary. If you speak about abdomen in a broader sense, please use Hara instead or any other more suitable term.


Yes and no. I see where you are coming from and the "etheric dantian" or field of elixir has nothing to do with anything physical, it is a place where qi is generated and also stored (false and real dantian)

Dantian though in DXYQ is an actual physical thing, you can see it and feel it.

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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:10 pm

Patrick wrote:Why should we use "physics" or "mechanical engineering" at all, when some other disciplines are much more adequate?


It seems reasonable to me to use whatever approach helps one to attain skill. If analyzing things in terms of physics helps one do that, go for it. If not, there is no reason to.

What other disciplines do suggest are much more adequate?


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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:56 pm

Tom wrote:Practice. 8-)


That's a given. :o

The question is what and how. ;D
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:03 pm

No masters that I have met that could fight cared about Qi or about the Dantian. What they did was definitely internal and there was nothing mystical about it. Physics could explain it all. Still amazing, though. :)
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:05 pm

Train how to fight, how to fight better and fight. It's simple. If the thought of squaring up against a decent Boxer, Judoka, Sanda fighter etc. for a round or two of sparring scares you shit-less then stop doing what you are doing now and train to fight or learn Salsa or something (it's easier and you'll meet more women)... Unless you are delusional beyond hope, you know how much you suck and prefer living in your cave or need a dose of reality ASAP. Unless you are actually good, in which case starting a thread about THAT, HERE, is probably not going to lead to anything worthwhile...
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Finny on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:14 pm

Bao wrote:
The dan then is a specific form of muscle development in the abdomen achieved after certain exercises and a certain state of mind. Much like moving your little toe. Which is where the problem comes ... no one can describe how to move your little toe.


I respectfully disagree. It has nothing to do with muscle development. Dantian is a name of a place, well, three different places actually. Ok, the Dantian is a a term from daoist practice. The Lower Dantian in daoist practice had nothing to do with muscle development. It's just a tiny spot, a place in your body where you store essence and turn essence into Qi. You can feel this spot without any physical practice. Only feeling and awareness is necessary. If you speak about abdomen in a broader sense, please use Hara instead or any other more suitable term.


Is there a need to be so absolutist and dogmatic?

Is dantian ONLY a term from daoist practice? Because we have numerous examples here of the term being used in CIMA practice.. is that 'wrong'? Could both not be 'correct'? ie could there not be both a 'daoist' 'energetic' 'conceptual' dantian, and a physical, developed anatomical dantian that is located around the exact spot the 'conceptual' dantian is located?

If a Dai practitioner states what Jon did above, is it necessarily wrong?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:18 am

Finny wrote:Is dantian ONLY a term from daoist practice? Because we have numerous examples here of the term being used in CIMA practice..


THAT is the reason why I brought this whole thing up.

My experience is that many practitioners of Taijiquan, in particular, are confused between "the dan tian" being trained through physical practice in the martial arts and "the dan tian(s)" being "cultivated" in Daoist Alchemy. One is developed through rigorous physical training while the other, often, is developed through sitting meditation and similar "cultivation" practices. When teachers use the same term to refer to two very different things, many students get lost. Many CIMA practitioners practice both as complimentary activities, eventually merging into one.

Another example of that confusion through a duplicity of meaning is "peng" the "jin" and "peng" the Yang/Wu posture.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:29 am

MaartenSFS wrote:No masters that I have met that could fight cared about Qi or about the Dantian. What they did was definitely internal and there was nothing mystical about it.


I started this thread by asking a bunch of questions. Two of those questions were as follows:

7. Do we even need to mention the "dan tian" - is development of "the dan tian" a requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?
8. Do we even need to mention "qi" - is "qi development" an essential requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?


Now you know part of why I asked those specific questions.

As an aside, I've met a few masters that could fight and they were all about Qi and the Dantian - I studied for a decade with one of them. Some frame things that way, others don't. One can logically infer some things from that.
Last edited by charles on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:25 am

Sorry, it wasn't really directed at anyone specific. Do you really think that it is necessary to complicate things for beginners, though, when many people learn for decades and still can't grasp it, let alone fight their way out of a wet paper bag?
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:29 am

Finny wrote:
Is there a need to be so absolutist and dogmatic?

Is dantian ONLY a term from daoist practice? Because we have numerous examples here of the term being used in CIMA practice.. is that 'wrong'? Could both not be 'correct'? ie could there not be both a 'daoist' 'energetic' 'conceptual' dantian, and a physical, developed anatomical dantian that is located around the exact spot the 'conceptual' dantian is located?

If a Dai practitioner states what Jon did above, is it necessarily wrong?


IMHO it's not really a question of being dogmatic or not. And I am sorry if it seems so or if I come of like that. The problem, IMO, is the confusion around certain concepts, the confusing nature of these things. Having an own way, an own opinion on how things work is certainly more than ok. It means that these concepts were developed in a practical manner and everyone should have their own ways to describe what they have developed from their own standpoint inside their own art. What concerns me is that when people enlighten certain things they tend to disregard other things. Personally, I love to hear and read about how things work in different styles. But IMHO, you should also understand the origin of the terms and concepts you use. If you just replace a meaning with something else, you lose something valuable and useful that other people have discovered. So even if you have your own opinion about Dantian and use the term differently than the original meaning of the term, you should still understand what was originally meant with Dantian and what is generally meant by Dantian. IMHO, if you don't understand the origin of a concept, you should not use the term, or at least you should acknowledge that you don't. I would like to see different ideas and concepts living side by side, and preferably distinguished by different names. It's easier that way because you always end up putting in values into words from your own ideas of a concept. Chinese tend to use a word or a term in many different ways depending on context. But western languages just doesn't work the same way, so for us it's, IMHO, better to distinguish things by different labels.

.........

[rant]OT: To everyone who only wants to practice, fight or believe that all of this is intellectual nonsense or over thinking, you should just STFU, stay out of the discussion completely and let people who are interested in terms, concepts and culture discuss what they like to discuss. The BS OT nonsense can be fun to some extent, but if it's disrespectful to the starter of a serious topic or anyone who enjoy such a conversation, you are just acting like a dick. :P [/rant]
Last edited by Bao on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby Patrick on Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:27 am

It seems reasonable to me to use whatever approach helps one to attain skill. If analyzing things in terms of physics helps one do that, go for it. If not, there is no reason to.


Agreed! Still I think sport/exercise science, bio-mechanics, physiotherapy knowledge, anatomy etc. is more useful.
You should not talk about human movement and simply disregard the properties of muscles, bones, joints etc.
Suddenly, someone starts posting stuff about Quantum physics. Because well its physics. :-X

(and I am really not addressing you!)
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Re: The Dan Tian

Postby littlepanda on Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:53 am

Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:
Dantian though in DXYQ is an actual physical thing, you can see it and feel it.

Jon



In DXYQ, dantian is rotated when one contracts and expands i.e. when the body is in movement. I would like to know if a DXYQ practitioner can stand still and rotate the dantian independently. What role does intent play here?

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