The Dan Tian

[charles]

This could have been a very instructive and educational thread.

It still can be if people are willing ...

[charles]

I mean, how the hell to you tell someone who's never been on a bike what to "feel" for to keep balance?

All good points.

In teaching a beginner how to ride a bike and keep one's balance, would it be functionally helpful to tell one "sink your qi" or "keep your dan tian centered"? If using Taijiquan language, one does both of those to maintain balance on a bike. Does that help or hinder the novice bike rider? Does that take it from something physical and practical to something "mysterious" and "vague". And, if you describe it that way, should you expect that it will take the beginner bike rider ten years to learn to balance? (Granted, aspects of Taijiquan are more complex than balancing on a bike.)

We could say, "Alternate putting your weight on your right foot and pushing down on the right pedal with putting your weight on your left foot and push down on the left pedal, but at no time push down with both feet at the same time". Is this simple physical instruction improved if we "Taiji-ise" it and say, "When biking, differentiate and separate yin from yang at all times". In this context, both mean the same thing: one is functional and deals with physical anatomy, the other, not-so-much. Under which set of instructions is the beginner most likely to "get it"?

[willie]

Don't tell me - you're going to make This thread great again?

impossible

[xxxxx]

Please resume your discussion, gentlemen. Willie is taking a well-earned respite.

[GrahamB]

Charles, like you I've been at this a long time, and these are important questions we all end up with if we want to progress, but they are also politically charged questions.

On one hand there's just the simple answers, and yes, think the answers are actually simple - it's the doing that's hard. But then on the other hand there's all the baggage that comes with it. So much baggage. Less now Willie is on hiatus, but still so much.

In my experience the best, most complete, accessible, clearest answers to all your questions are freely available from Mr Mike Sigman in a language that westerners can understand and using a logic that doesn't require jumps into magic or the Unknown. Of course, mere mention of his name gets one accused of being a "shill", or simply hysterical wailing from some of the memebers who he was mean to once online ("fuck Sigman!, etc..). Or "think for yourself!" (I do, thanks, I just don't see the point in reinventing the wheel one somebody has already done it). Then there the whole tribal Cult wars with the Aiki master. Sigh.

I think this is a shame, as firstly none of it really matters (we'll all be dead in 100 years), and secondly people are missing good quality information for reasons that are outside the search for it. And thirdly, in person (the trunk of the tree if you've been following the shamanic podcasts) everybody would probably get on fine.

But anyway, I'm not going to state all the answers to the questions and be accused of simply shilling Mr Sigman's ideas (note: he makes no real money from this, which I have found more readily produces honesty), however I would say that if I was going to demonstrate what Dantien rotation was on video I'd use some of the fists from xingyi as clearer examples than taiji provides, or I'd use silk reeling exercises, of course. But I do think that a pi chuan or a single palm change from bagua gets the vertical rotation point home clearer.

Good luck with the project, I always respect inquiring minds (a true philosopher).

[Finny]

Unfortunately I have no answers here, only questions - I think it's a great, clear thread you've started Charles, hopefully we can keep on track now..

I've always wondered what is(are) considered THE exercises most critical for (physical) dantian development?

Are there different methods which produce markedly different results in the practitioners body? What I'm wondering more specifically is whether the distinction between the characteristic Chen 'spiraling', 'silk reeling' type of dantian work and the more explicitly vertical dantian rotation developed with Dai shi squatting monkey work.. are they completely different methods of dantian use, or just variations on a theme?

In short, nothing to add other than the above curiosity, and thanks to Charles for starting the thread (and any who can contribute)..

BUT.. reading GBs post above... brings this to mind for me:

[Bao]

In my experience the best, most complete, accessible, clearest answers to all your questions are freely available from Mr Mike Sigman in a language that westerners can understand and using a logic that doesn't require jumps into magic or the Unknown.

I am sure that all of these things can be explained in many different ways so they make sense.

So, here's the question for y'all. How do you go about explaining/teaching this stuff to beginners in such a way that they actually develop skills in finite time.

For example, In concrete terms and language - for beginners and with absolute clarity,

1. What is "silk reeling" (chan si jin)?
2. What is its purpose - why bother with it or studying it?
3. what is "the dan tian"?
4. what has the dan tian have to do with silk reeling?
5. What is the oft-mentioned "dan tian rotation" - what physically is one doing and what is one "rotating"?
6. Are the dan tian and the waist the same thing? If not, what's the difference?
7. Do we even need to mention the "dan tian" - is development of "the dan tian" a requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?
8. Do we even need to mention "qi" - is "qi development" an essential requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?

Damn, I have no time to write about these things. There's A LOT you would like to discuss and have input on.


"3. what is "the dan tian"?
4. what has the dan tian have to do with silk reeling?
7. Do we even need to mention the "dan tian" - is development of "the dan tian" a requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?
6. Are the dan tian and the waist the same thing? If not, what's the difference?"

Every art of body movement, dance, sports and many other requires a developed center as they deal an organisation of the body movements. Movements are organised from the center. What you call this center, I could care less about.

No "waist" is not the same thing. Waist can move free from the center or without regarding the center.

For other things, I can't express it better than I tried in these posts:
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... d-tai-chi/
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... ree-gates-通三關-tong-san-guan/


"8. Do we even need to mention "qi" - is "qi development" an essential requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?"

What you feel when you practice tai chi is a consequence of tai chi practice regardless if you try to put into words or not. You'll develop what you will develop if you practice Tai Chi correctly.

"5. What is the oft-mentioned "dan tian rotation" - what physically is one doing and what is one "rotating"?"

I don't like the concept "dantian rotation". IMO, Dan Tian is the absolute center, it should be still and everything else should move or rotate around the dantian. Otherwise the body has no center, there will be no center for movements to be organised around. There will be no strength. Strength comes from connection through a centre, not by having something in the body rotation freely.

[Patrick]

I do not think that Sigman´s description are that good. I think we should be thankful for what he did, but it is IMHO too far off of anatomical and exercise scientific knowledge.
I feel that all discussions with him seems to be more along the line "you do not agree with me".

[front]

While I was training chen taiji, the only answer I got regarding dantian was: When you have one, you will know.
Not very helpful for a beginner
Then I met Dan Harden and for the first time in my life got simple explanations that I could understand. Now I wish people to realise that simple explanations are sometimes not good enough but they are always better than complex explanations. You need them simple to start the training. I also wish people to understand that the meaning changes with the skill. So the words are always the same but their meaning evolves with the ability. The only way to really know is to get there personally.
And then you have to consider that historically many generations of masters somehow managed to get the skills by using the same traditional approach devoid of modern science and anatomy buzzwords. That means that the model works even if the explanations are not really precise from our point of view. May be the words are weird because what we try to do is weird...
Personally I find it confusing when these skills are described as if they are something common and everyday. Obviously they are not. Quite the opposite, it seems they are so rare that they are practically non-existent. If everybody can do it, then you will meet people with these skills every day and we know this is not the case.
What I'm trying to say is that the only way to have absolute clarity for a beginner is to have simple explanation that could be demonstrated right away and then if followed by a beginner to produce a small scale version of what has been demonstrated. So talking, doing and replicating need to go hand in hand.

[Yeung]

The term Dan Tian is first appear in the writing of Ge Hong葛洪（283－343）, the following is a useful link:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/gehong/

[windwalker]

Frankly I am not clear on why one would ask the question to begin with.
To me it seems self evident and very easy to explain as long as one can "do"

“CORRECTNESS OF SKILL IN TAIJI”
“太極者元也無論內外上下左右不離此元元也太極者方也無論內外上下左右不離此方也元之出入方之進退隨方就元之往來也方為開展元為緊凑方元規矩之至其就能出此以外哉如此得心應手仰髙鑽堅神乎其神見隱顕微明而且明生生不已欲罷不能
Taiji is round, never abandoning its roundness whether going in or out, up or down, left or right. And Taiji is square, never abandoning its squareness whether going in or out, up or down, left or right.

As you roundly exit and enter, or squarely advance and retreat, follow squareness with roundness, and vice versa. Squareness has to do with expanding, roundness with contracting. Squareness means a directional focus along which you can express your power.
Roundness means an all-around buoyancy with which you can receive and neutralize the opponent’s power.
The main rule is that you be squared and rounded. After all, could there be anything beyond these things?

By means of this you will become proficient at the skill. But “gazing up, it grows higher, and drilling in, it gets harder”
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

Seems very straight forward and simple.

The question seems to be a mix of "Terminology" and then trying to explain the terminology to those who do not speak the language or are not culturally attuned to it. Or as some have suggested the answer is so "simple", and yet fail to mention it in their post must be a simple secret answer.

In the second video you posted, he makes it clear that students shouldn't bother with "jin" or "dan tian" for the first ten years. Is that how you learned, with no mention of jin, qi or dan tian for the first 10 years?

almost, haha brings back memories.

If one can not be, nor understands what being straight means. I feel its kind of pointless to talk about anything else.

My last teacher would tell me I was not "straight" for example I would spend the next yr working it out, before seeing him again.
Then he might mention mention I was not "round" enough and this would continue over a span of more then 10ys
Just his way and style of teaching...

I should mention that there it was felt that one should get the basics in 3 to 5 yrs...of 3hrs of practice every day...
rain, snow or heat of summer, he was there 3 hrs in the morning, and 3 hrs in the evenings.

When he asked if one understood, it was never by mouth,,,one would have to to show and do,,,not talk about it...


I’ve had 3 different teachers who've used different methods and explanations to help me in understanding what they were doing.
My last teacher didn’t say much, in fact if one asked about such things as “yi” he would say dont ask about it, after a while you will know it...Which I found to be true in one way, and maybe not so efficient in another way.

I do agree with the teacher in the clip in that using basic physics can explain much if not most of how and why taijij works, why and how its different. The older teachers many who’ve had or have backgrounds in western science also IME tend to use this method were possible.

With words like dantian, qi, ect. I’ve found that until one reaches a certain point in the practice they can be hindrance to building certain fundamental ideas and clarifying what's happening and why.


A clip of my teacher and how he taught. In the clip he is in his 90s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J75tHE4vmFo

he uses the spiral among other things that have been mentioned.
His method was to show and allow one to feel...and let one work it out themselves. The practice itself would tend to develop the understanding if one followed and really practiced. In traditional training not everyone gets it, nor is meant to.

Some might call this old school, this way of teaching may not be so practical for the modern person.

If I don’t agree with another's practice or clip I tend not to comment or maybe ask a question
about what one thought or thinks they see as in the Chen practice clip, I commented on...

[windwalker]

off topic:

Many students, faced with the void of any real experience or understanding of these things, and what these things practically involve, fill the holes with whatever the student thinks the teacher might have meant. A common result is that there are lots of practitioners - many of whom have been at it for a long time - who talk academically, and with authority, about qi, the dan tian, "rotating" the dan tian and silk reeling, but actually have little or no physical skill at doing the things they talk about - and no concrete way of teaching it to their students.

I felt the action taken on "Willie" was wrong.

what i am talking about are powered helix. which means that the coils are created by dantain rotation.

The OP quoted him as a lead in to his post, and then seems to imply that "he" along with other long time practitioners do not know what they'er talking about, and that they have no skill...."Willie" to his credit then suggested come to him to feel his "skill" or lack of.

That was my read. Feel free to correct or enhance my understanding.

[Steve James]

The problem is that Mr. Harden and Mr. Sigman disagree, so it's a matter of the student choosing the answer he prefers. Their students will both say that it was the clearest explanation they had heard and made the most sense. Either they're both right or they're both wrong. Of course, they and their students will say that the others are wrong. An absolute beginner walking in off the street to one of Dan or Mike's seminars would have no clue as to which method was correct. Yet, imo, any student who walked into either class and thought what he saw was a good goal, would be doing pretty well for himself.

That said, one of the reasons for the degree of disagreement about all terms in tcc, specifically, is that there's this underlying assertion of superiority. So, practitioners (on the internet, since the very first ma message boards) have had to explain why tcc was so widely practiced. That came down to citing the martial reputations of the 1st and 2nd generation Yangs, with their Chang San Feng legend, versus the Chens -because that's where YLC learned. It was (and is) argued that Chen style was more martial. What illustrated this? Well, the emphasis on using the dan tian, the obvious coiling and "chanssujin", and the resulting "fa jin."

It was said that "if you wanted to learn real tcc, go to a teacher and ask to feel his dantien." These attitudes haven't produced much for martial arts in the last 25 years except arguments. Much more heat than light.

But, if these concepts are simple to describe, then what is Sigman's definition and what is Harden's? How would you define them? Would it be better to call the "dan tian" the "field of cinnabar"? Should a student know the Chinese term or the English translation? Does it make a difference? (Btw, the same is true for qi, peng, fa jing, etc.).

[windwalker]

The problem is that Mr. Harden and Mr. Sigman disagree, so it's a matter of the student choosing the answer he prefers. Their students will both say that it was the clearest explanation they had heard and made the most sense. Either they're both right or they're both wrong. Of course, they and their students will say that the others are wrong. An absolute beginner walking in off the street to one of Dan or Mike's seminars would have no clue as to which method was correct. Yet, imo, any student who walked into either class and thought what he saw was a good goal, would be doing pretty well for himself.

That said, one of the reasons for the degree of disagreement about all terms in tcc, specifically, is that there's this underlying assertion of superiority. So, practitioners (on the internet, since the very first ma message boards) have had to explain why tcc was so widely practiced. That came down to citing the martial reputations of the 1st and 2nd generation Yangs, with their Chang San Feng legend, versus the Chens -because that's where YLC learned. It was (and is) argued that Chen style was more martial. What illustrated this? Well, the emphasis on using the dan tian, the obvious coiling and "chanssujin", and the resulting "fa jin."

It was said that "if you wanted to learn real tcc, go to a teacher and ask to feel his dantien." These attitudes haven't produced much for martial arts in the last 25 years except arguments. Much more heat than light.

But, if these concepts are simple to describe, then what is Sigman's definition and what is Harden's? How would you define them? Would it be better to call the "dan tian" the "field of cinnabar"? Should a student know the Chinese term or the English translation? Does it make a difference? (Btw, the same is true for qi, peng, fa jing, etc.).

nice

Which is why I don't use them directly for those I work with but I allude to them as a matter of course when explaining things using physics as the model.
My students all native speakers of Chinese, most long time tcc practitioners had no practical way to relate something they understood to something they could do....or replicate even after many yrs of practice. The light you speak of to my mind has always been around, with many of the older teachers using western models to express or update the understandings of what was written long ago. Even so its quite counter intuitive, and takes awhile to rewire how the body/mind moves and understands movement.

[rojcewiczj]

what i am talking about are powered helix. which means that the coils are created by dantain rotation.

I've been working on the script to an instructional video. The video is an introduction to "silk reeling", which is a foundational skill for most of Chen style Taijiquan - and I'd argue, some other styles as well.

Typically, the beginning student of Taijiquan is taught something called "silk reeling exercises" (chan si gong) and/or empty-hand forms. Once introduced to these, the student usually just keeps plugging along, practicing the same choreography they were taught over and over again. In the teaching of these things, the teacher often speaks of some mysterious things called "qi" and "the dan tian". Some teachers will speak of moving and "rotating the dan tian" and "circulating the qi".

Many students, faced with the void of any real experience or understanding of these things, and what these things practically involve, fill the holes with whatever the student thinks the teacher might have meant. A common result is that there are lots of practitioners - many of whom have been at it for a long time - who talk academically, and with authority, about qi, the dan tian, "rotating" the dan tian and silk reeling, but actually have little or no physical skill at doing the things they talk about - and no concrete way of teaching it to their students.

So, here's the question for y'all. How do you go about explaining/teaching this stuff to beginners in such a way that they actually develop skills in finite time.

For example, In concrete terms and language - for beginners and with absolute clarity,

1. What is "silk reeling" (chan si jin)?
2. What is its purpose - why bother with it or studying it?
3. what is "the dan tian"?
4. what has the dan tian have to do with silk reeling?
5. What is the oft-mentioned "dan tian rotation" - what physically is one doing and what is one "rotating"?
6. Are the dan tian and the waist the same thing? If not, what's the difference?
7. Do we even need to mention the "dan tian" - is development of "the dan tian" a requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?
8. Do we even need to mention "qi" - is "qi development" an essential requirement for developing skill in Taijiquan?

It is surprising how often these things are mentioned, but how difficult it is to provide simple, direct, functional working descriptions of the terms that are constantly thrown around and how to effectively develop these things.

1. Silk reeling is to make a movement of any part of the body without loosing relationship to the central mass of the body. When any part of the body arrives, the whole mass can arrive.
2. The purpose of silk reeling is to arrive at a consistent power, not dependent on fluctuation of contraction/extension in the muscles. Like standing on a scale, I can apply 180 lbs constantly.
3. Dan tian is the product of open hip joints (kua).
4. When your hip joints are open they can rotate smoothly to allow for nearly immediate redistribution of weight, or re-application of mass, thus facilitating "silk reeling".
5. "dan tian rotation" is an interpretation of the rotation in the hip joints.
6. The dan tian and the waist as terms, may overlap in meaning depending on usage; however, in both cases the visible movement of the waist or dan tian are products of the rotation of the hip joints.
7. No, When the hips joints have fully realized their mobility, then the entire body is going to be capable of a certain coordinated quality of movement as a product. Fixating on some particular region of the body due to its visual
or poetical impression is not necessary.
8. No, it is quite obvious that when one exercises that their "energy" level gets higher or stronger.