Stick, adhere, control

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:10 am

At the speed a boxer can disengage or punch round it becomes a dangerous tactic. Why?


Exactly, which is why for those I've had contact with its not good thing
to allow them to punch, foot work and positioning become key..

What those I worked with wanted to know about, was how to control the others body from a clinch,
and how not to allow others to control them using it. As with many things skill level is a big factor.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:24 am

marvin8 wrote:Some ILC skills that I see starting at 1:33 in the demonstration, I don't see this in "actual sparring" or competition.


So you are judging the control skills imparted by ILC sticky hands and spinning hands drills on a Demo performed by Sam Chin on students.. that doesn't contain the formal sticky and spinning hands drills themselves.. ok. Yes they are 'circling hands', but that's all..
I have seen and competed against ILC guys at pushing hands competitions; including seeing Dasha at an event.
I have also practiced under an ILC instructor and been to a few seminars with S Chin. It works and they develop decent touch and control skills at that range that result in people falling down or being controled a certain way - in those formats. I really don't need convincing whether a fighter like Dasha is capable to transfer the skills to an engagement where she doesn'thave boxing gloves on, it's not even a question. The training to do so is there. And also expecting matches to look like demos ? Is that still a thing..

Your judgement based on a few seconds of demo clips is worth about the inverse level of your ignorance.
In your world everything is out in the open and obvious, in the real world I'm afraid it isn't. But that's your problem, not mine.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:47 am

marvin8 wrote:Why be so rude? -shrug- I said IMO, emphasized with bold


I take it that's adressed to me.. I'll tell ya.
Because my dear, I'm a rudeboy of the first order of rudeboys.


from wiki, bold emphasis is mine.
Rude boy, rudeboy, rudie, rudi, and rudy are slang terms that originated in 1960s Jamaican street culture,[1] and which are still used today. <snip>. In the UK, the terms rude boy and rude girl are used in a similar way to gangsta or badman.[2]


Also your opinion sometimes sucks and that should matter.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:39 am

For any cima gloves will be limiting for the true expression of the art. They are for safety, obviously. In taiji the tiger's mouth plays such a big part in controlling the wrist and the elbow that once one puts on gloves it stops being taiji. Even though my taiji and yiquan are inseparable I don't need to put my hands on my opponent to control him in yiquan. That is done with the rest of the body. I like to have my hands free, beyond his gates, but the gloves change the shape of the hand and that again limits the true expression of the art.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby marvin8 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:34 pm

cloudz wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Why be so rude? -shrug- I said IMO, emphasized with bold


I take it that's adressed to me.. I'll tell ya.
Because my dear, I'm a rudeboy of the first order of rudeboys.


from wiki, bold emphasis is mine.
Rude boy, rudeboy, rudie, rudi, and rudy are slang terms that originated in 1960s Jamaican street culture,[1] and which are still used today. <snip>. In the UK, the terms rude boy and rude girl are used in a similar way to gangsta or badman.[2]

Actually, that is exactly what I meant. I meant to say, "Why be so ruu?" I was thinking of Bon Qui Qui, when I wrote that: :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkdcYlOn5M

http://fashionista.com/2013/01/rude-ale ... c-flagship, RUDE! ALEXANDER WANG BRINGS BACK MADTV'S BON QUI QUI TO 'WORK' AT HIS NYC FLAGSHIP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKPTTIlA5gg
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Steve James on Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:14 pm

if we are talking about sensitivity and boxing gloves then we obviously (by definition and basic common sense) are talking about the hands sensitivity and control.


Cool. You got it.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby marvin8 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:06 pm

Wadneringdragon wrote:I have no real interest in anything other than the first 30 or so seconds of this clip, still just break hands boxing as we all complain when it comes to the principles of internal arts. Stick, Adhere, control, my question, does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.

marvin8 wrote:If you are using the general definitions, fighters in Muay Thai, MMA, boxing, etc. control their opponents using hand traps, arm traps, thai plum, head control, etc. in sparring and fights. They build these skills through shadowboxing, pad drills, partner drills, technical sparring, sparring and competition fights.

A few examples.

Published on Jan 4, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWYNW2FekUQ

Published on Jan 28, 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNzGJNWho2o&t=1m16s

Although holding and grabbing is illegal, boxers use various methods to unbalance or control their opponent.

Published on Aug 22, 2015
New footwork tutorial to help you improve footwork during inside (close range boxing), implementing the pivot of your fee to adjust your angle and head control using your hands aid your movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKNkwQNPQR4

Published on Oct 23, 2015
How Floyd Mayweather cunningly uses his forearms to control and create space at close-quarters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxkjS1L9WtM
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:26 pm

Marvin8, not sure if you read my post on first page

"I have always considered control first and foremost, dictating the actual action of the fight. The distance is at your command by foot work while the contact is at the necessity of the fist. To initiate an opponent's attack is by initiating a defense, if you strike and he does not defend by contact you follow by foot, you recognize full and empty by his motion, you know his weak side so you step on his weak side to force the reaction, already this gives you the notion of his necessary move you control that with you intention. If he defends by contact , it tells you where every other weapon is located, your control is in forcing action."

Your above post covers this fairly well, but I still think many don't understand the reality of ring generalship, further I think Chinese martial art takes this to a much higher level. Understanding how you stick to your opponent using their tension, understanding their emptying in effort to escape, knowing just where they will step because you have led them there. It is truly a science. Western boxing leaves gaps leaving room to trade punches, Chinese boxing seeks to finish immediately.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby cloudz on Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:36 am

A few notes and comments.

I really liked the post by Subitai on this topic here, it covers a lot of the nitty gritty practical stuff that needs to be considered.
I'm not looking to have an in depth discussion and lay out a whole approach, but a few things I have to say.
Whilst we can look at common ideas and themes across arts, still it's worth respecting the differences and how arts do things differently.
I spoke about ILC and whilst my experience in their 'sticky hands' practices is shallow I gleaned enough to recognise that it's pretty different from taiji.
The point of contact used for the formal training drills is the area where the wrist meets the hand; underside.
Of course the principles and theory apply to any point of contact. You can have points of control up the forearm or forearm to forearm for example. Like other arts/ styles.
Some of the things that are stressed that I found different to Taiji are the importance of having the upperside positions that allow you to strike and not the other person.

Another idea that is stressed is to treat the wrist, elbow and shoulder as like ranges or gates and that you should defend each gate, in the sense of grappling/wrestling it can be hard to get your hands into clinch against someone who has good skills at defending the first 2 ranges.

What I see as important is being able to blend striking and grappling as seamlessly as possible and have options if you want them and this kind of work on the wrist and elbow range is quite unique to CMA and I think can serve as a useful bridge between striking and stand up grappling. At the risk of repeating myself, it doesn't sit well with me to be critical of the lack of good cma hand fighting in an MT match; largely due to the gloves. It's usefullness is very much opportunistic and situational/ environmental; in that some situations it will be more useful than others.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:29 am

I don't practice ilc and have observed only clips, I was excited about a Sam chin visit to Chgo but I was told the interest wasn't strong enough to warrant his visit. One I've noticed though, and you have mentioned here as well is the necessity for top side positioning. I totally understand point of contact, as is my signature point, for me it is absolute, you control the point it seems I see most ilc players chasing the point rather than controlling it, as well there is much use of the Palm that I see, again I would have to feel it for sure, but for me the palm and the tiger mouth lead directly to the core, and opportunity for anyone with skill to shock an opponent.

https://youtu.be/FLOi0N-A17k

Here, it would seem to me if you change the point then you have created the wrong point of contact, if he pushes down at the out set, you turn the fist down and roll him out off your center, of course he will roll on top and continue to turn you, if he is on his way in as 1:35 it seems to drop the elbows would put the point of contact on the outside allowing you to negate his push. And clearly as I pointed out above there are always counters to counters. My point though is the point is the control not the contact.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby marvin8 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:27 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Marvin8, not sure if you read my post on first page

"I have always considered control first and foremost, dictating the actual action of the fight. The distance is at your command by foot work while the contact is at the necessity of the fist. To initiate an opponent's attack is by initiating a defense, if you strike and he does not defend by contact you follow by foot, you recognize full and empty by his motion, you know his weak side so you step on his weak side to force the reaction, already this gives you the notion of his necessary move you control that with you intention. If he defends by contact , it tells you where every other weapon is located, your control is in forcing action."

I did read it, having missed it earlier. However, there is no question mark. So, I didn't know if you were making a statement or looking for other tactics to accomplish your strategy.

Fighters (general) use a variety of strategies (including everything you mentioned) depending on the situation and opponent. I don't know if you are using a more narrow definition of control (e.g., internal).

Fighters can use attacks to set up, position, control and limit their opponent's reactions.

Boxing's: "Hit and don't get Hit." BJJ's: "Position before submission." These terms include control the opponent, first, before finishing. This can be getting superior position, trapping, disrupt structure, closing off lines of attack, defense, etc., before attacking and opening yourself up for a counter.

One can set up low kicks, sweeps, attacks, etc., by getting their opponent to put his weight on his front foot, back foot or while his foot is in the air, depending on their goals.

Wanderingdragon wrote:Your above post covers this fairly well, but I still think many don't understand the reality of ring generalship, further I think Chinese martial art takes this to a much higher level. Understanding how you stick to your opponent using their tension, understanding their emptying in effort to escape, knowing just where they will step because you have led them there. It is truly a science. Western boxing leaves gaps leaving room to trade punches, Chinese boxing seeks to finish immediately.

Fighters have multiple tactics to cause tension in their opponents. Once the opponent freezes, the fighter can change, control and/or finish. Fighters have multiple ways to draw their opponent and lead them to a finish (e.g., attack by drawing, deception, feints, footwork, change of direction, etc.) The videos I posted include bridging the gap, controlling, and knocking the opponent unconcious.

In general, Sport fighters prefer to end a fight early. However, they do not look for the knockout. They wait for the right opportunity, which makes them more defensively responsible. Because of it's strategies and tactics, the art of boxing is referred as, "The Sweet Science," by those knowledgable about fighting. High level MMA, boxing, etc., trainers tend not to divulge details of their strategies and tactics, as their fighters earn thousands or millions of dollars per fight.

In the OP,
Wanderingdragon wrote:. . . does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.

IMO, everything in your posts above are practiced and "achieved" in combat sports,which one can analyze and drill. The only exception, I see, is the adhering and uprooting at the point of contact in the strict IMA sense.

I am interested in seeing these higher level IMA skills applied in fighting, beyond the push hands and demonstration rules. I think that is the point of the OP. If you know of other IMA skills being applied in "sparring / fighting," maybe you can post a video or at least elaborate on how it is achieved in fighting.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:35 pm

Though still just a demo, I have always found this fairly demonstrative.

https://youtu.be/Ps3ZVVUc4DI
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Bao on Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:59 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:Though still just a demo, I have always found this fairly demonstrative.

https://youtu.be/Ps3ZVVUc4DI


Nice XY demo. Still a western boxing/point sparring kind of mind-set. Maybe it's better for the show.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:00 am

Some more information related to Zhan (adhere).

Excerpt from Some Remarks About Sparring by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, https://ymaa.com/articles/2016/04/some- ... t-sparring:
Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming wrote:Taijiquan's Attaching and Adhering
To stick means to attach. It means to get contact and then stick and connect. To adhere means to stick together without separating. The most difficult thing in Taijiquan sparring training is the Jin of attaching. If (you) are able to attach, then you are able to adhere, connect, and follow. Attaching can be classified into two kinds: the attaching from the body's not being connected to connecting; and the attaching in that the bodies have already connected and you attach to the opponent's center to upset his root.

Attach (Zhan) and then Adhere (Nian) are two different Jins. These two Jins are considered two of the most difficult Jins to understand and practice for Taijiquan practitioners. Attaching is an action of contacting and then connecting. Adhering means after contacting, then you stick together. In order to do so, you must maintain your contact and follow your opponent's movement. It is just like fly paper that sticks on your opponent's hands and cannot be separated.

Attaching can be distinguished into two kinds. The first kind of attaching is to get in touch with the opponent's body and then connect. Naturally, this is to build up a connection from a separated original position. The second kind of attaching is after you and your opponent's bodies have connected, then you find the attachment of your Jin to his center and root. Normally, in Taijiquan pushing hands training, both parties are constantly searching for each other's center so the opponent's center can be damaged and the root can be pulled. Once you have attached to this center, you will stick with it, and keep connecting and following. This will place your opponent in an urgent and defensive position at all times. Therefore, this kind of attaching Jin is always associated with Growing Jin (Zhang Jin). Growing Jin is a continuous Jin through which you can attach to the opponent's center and grow into it until it can be destroyed.


Excerpt from The Song of Push Hands (Da Shou Ge), http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_DaShouG ... houGe.html:
Analysis:
“Lure the opponent in to fall into emptiness” is the main idea of Taiji Quan. In fact we can say no matter what skills we use, this is the ultimate effect we want to achieve. In practice, how to lure your opponent in is the key point. To lure is not to simply move away. It is not a dodge, and it is not running away either. You should let your opponent feel like he can get to you, that he can use his force on you. When his true force comes out, you should keep him going. Little by little, you can lure him to lose his balance. Here the common misunderstanding is that you are physically moving your body away. True Taiji Quan skill involves keeping in touch with the opponent, but not allowing his force to have any real effect on your body. So most of the time the physical movement itself is very small and brief, so subtle it cannot be seen clearly. The feelings involved in this process are very nuanced. In the beginning, you try to lure his force out, when he starts to lose his balance, the touching point between you and him become a point he wants to use to keep his balance. To keep his balance, he will become more dependent on the point of contact. He will apply more force on it, giving you more opportunity to control him and let him lose even more balance. So it looks like in the beginning you follow him and then he just falls under your control and follow you.

This is one of the high level skills in Taiji Quan. Only when you can do this well can you create the moment that allows you to throw the opponent with the least effort on your part. When you release your force to throw the opponent, no matter how much you use, it should be whole-body force. Whole-body force does not mean using the maximum force you have in your body, it just means the force has to come from all parts of the body. For releasing force or jin, there are two common concepts involved –opening (kai) and closing (he). Opening is about xu – the storing, charging, gathering, and integration of internal force. That means you should give the opponent a chance to come in and try something. That will give you a chance to control him. So “lure him in and off-balance him” is opening. At the same time, you should store your force and prepare to launch it. Closing is about fa – the releasing of internal force. That means releasing your whole-body internal force in the right direction at the right time. It should be noted that in real application, most of the time opening and closing cannot be separated clearly, sometimes they occur simultaneously.

The four basic skills that characterize correct Taiji Quan push hands are zhan, nian, lian, and sui. All techniques of Taiji Quan are based on some combination of these attributes/skills. If you do not use these skills, then you are not doing Taiji Quan. Good sensitivity is the basic gongfu underlying all of these skills, and these four skills are foundation of all other Taiji skills.

Zhan: it is not just sticking, but a specific type of sticking, like when something is stuck on the bottom of something else. Guide your opponent and have him under your control, when this is achieved, it will looks like he is stuck to your hand. When you can do this well, your can make your opponent’s body leave the ground using his own power alone and bounces him off easily. Zhan is a skill for uprooting your opponent. Although zhan is normally sticking in an upward direction, it can be applied in any direction. It happens whenever your opponent is losing his balance, and in desperation is trying to use your body to right his balance. To do zhan well you need to have really good basic gongfu: sensitivity, coordination/integration, understanding of Taiji principle, etc. So zhan is a skill people always use to gauge a person’s Taiji Quan skill. . . .


Excerpt from past thread, http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic. ... e1#p217927:
Wuyizidi wrote:Both zhan and nian mean sticking. In Chinese there are subtle but important differences between the two. Zhan means you're sticky, and whatever you touch, comes with you. For example, while eating lunch your hand got sticky, you rest it on a piece of paper napkin, when you raise your hand, the napkin comes up with it.

Nian means you're sticky, someone cannot get away from you. We commonly use it to describe young children. For example, a lot of time older kids don't like to play with their younger siblings. But the younger sibling just hangs around, refuses to go away no matter what you do. He's not causing you any big trouble directly per say, but he's preventing you from doing what you really want to do in peace.

The ability to do zhan well is usually taken as the key indicators of advanced mastery. In CMA rooting is one of the basic abilities all styles emphasize. So plenty of people have roots so strong that even opponents of much larger size cannot move them easily from where they stand. In Taiji, a typical way to deal with this is to use Zhan: you apply a strong downward force, if the opponent responds with a strong upward force, you stop the downward push while maintaining the illusion of continuing to do so, you don't lose contact, you follow his motion - when he goes up, your hand, which is above him, moves up with him. The next move is to push him off balance now that he is uprooted. Because your hand is above him, to the outsider this creates the illusion of you picking him up from above, as if your hand is sticky. To people who don't know Taiji, this is a bizarre, inexplicable sight. Hence the expression "real taiji quan skill looks like magic trick (fake)".

. . . And as we can see here, these are not really 4 completely independent skills, to do any one skill well requires doing one or more of the other skills well.


From another website Zhan:
Wushuer wrote:First I will try to give a definition of Zhan as I understand it. Maybe if I can articulate my view on Zhan I will find the flaw in my technique is in my understanding of the theory.
It's worth a try.

I have only my memories of how Zhan was explained to me by my instructors at Wu's T'ai Chi Ch'uan Academies to go on, so it could very likely be that my understanding of Zhan will be different than others and may not be wholly accurate for Yang Cheng Fu style TCC. I invite and welcome all and sundry to post their views on Zhan and help me along in my search for this skill in any way they feel might be helpful.

Anyway, here goes:

I remember Zhan as meaning to get your opponent under your control and make him follow you as if stuck to your hand.

When I can do this, my opponent appears to follow my every move and I seem to be able to "read" his movements before he makes them.

I uproot my opponent or at least move his root in a direction he did not expect (I have heard this called "shaking his root" by some instructors) causing him to lose his balance. When he loses his balance he then tries to regain it by borrowing mine, if he loses contact with me he will either stumble away or fall so he borrows my balance to stay upright, sticking to me in the process, and I can then lead him.

When using Zhan I do not use force to move an opponent, I control my own balance (or maybe center would be a better word) but since he is borrowing my center for his balance he must follow me as I move, no matter where I go. I have heard this called "sticking" as opponents actually seem to be stuck to you as you move them around in this fashion.

As I learned this I began to understand the concept of using my opponents own force against him for the first time.

To do Zhan well, I was told, requires a great deal of sensitivity and at least a basic understanding of the underlying principals of TCC combat.

I was also lead to believe that you could judge your skill in TCC by how well this skill has been learned. If that is so, my skill level must go up and down like the tide because, as I've mentioned, my skill at this technique is extremely transient.

I first learned to "shake" my opponents root and then lead them up by lifting my arm and making them raise up to follow, keeping a slight downward pressure where we were joined at the same time so they would not suspect they were being lead (hope that makes sense, it's harder to describe than to do!) then you simply release them and they will almost appear to jump into the air.

That's a lot of fun when you can do it right.
Later I learned that you can "lead" them in any direction, I guess it's just easiest to learn to lead them up first then move on to others directions. Anyway, I have found that leading in the direction of an opponents force is actually easiest for me to do, and usually quite effective. . . .

I use Nian at all times when in contact with an opponent, everyone should. I give him what my Sifu used to call "a little trouble" and I escelate that trouble at every opportunity. I don't really have "control" of my opponent when I use Nian, I am merely shaking his root to upset him. I am "adhering" as I would at any time, but I am also making "trouble" so that my opponent is not comfortable when he is in contact with me, and I continually increase that trouble every chance I get. When I give him enough trouble that he loses his balance, then I can bring in Zhan and use that to control his movements.

I guess the difference, as I understand it, between Zhan and Nian is the word "control". If I don't have control of my opponents center but I am shaking it, this is Nian. If I have shaken my opponents center and he is now following me like he is stuck to me with glue and completely under my control, this is Zhan. . . .


Excerpt from EXPLAINING TAIJI PRINCIPLES (TAIJI FA SHUO), https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/:
[4] STICK, ADHERE, CONNECT, AND FOLLOW

粘者提上拔髙之謂也
黏者留戀繾綣之謂也
連者舍己無離之謂也
隨者彼走此應之謂也
要知人之知覺運動非明粘黏連隨不可斯粘黏連隨之功夫亦甚細矣
Sticking means to lift up high.
Adhering means to stay and be attached.
Connecting means to let go of yourself and not separate from the opponent.
Following means to follow him wherever he goes.
If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill.

頂匾丢抗
[5] CRASHING IN, COLLAPSING, COMING AWAY, AND RESISTANCE

頂者出頭之謂也
匾者不及之謂也
丢者離開之謂也
抗者太過之謂也
要知于此四字之病不但粘黏連隨斷不明知覺運動也初學對手不可不知也更不可不去此病所難者粘黏連隨而不許頂匾丢抗是所不易矣
Crashing in means sticking your head out.
Collapsing means not enough pressure.
Coming away means separating.
Resistance means too much pressure.
You should understand that these four mistakes will not merely interfere with sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, but will also prevent you from moving with awareness. When beginning to work with a partner, you must understand and especially prevent these errors. The difficulty in sticking, adhering, connecting, and following is in not allowing yourself to crash in, collapse, come away, or resist. This is not at all easy.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:54 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:I don't practice ilc and have observed only clips, I was excited about a Sam chin visit to Chgo but I was told the interest wasn't strong enough to warrant his visit. One I've noticed though, and you have mentioned here as well is the necessity for top side positioning. I totally understand point of contact, as is my signature point, for me it is absolute, you control the point it seems I see most ilc players chasing the point rather than controlling it, as well there is much use of the Palm that I see, again I would have to feel it for sure, but for me the palm and the tiger mouth lead directly to the core, and opportunity for anyone with skill to shock an opponent.

https://youtu.be/FLOi0N-A17k

Here, it would seem to me if you change the point then you have created the wrong point of contact, if he pushes down at the out set, you turn the fist down and roll him out off your center, of course he will roll on top and continue to turn you, if he is on his way in as 1:35 it seems to drop the elbows would put the point of contact on the outside allowing you to negate his push. And clearly as I pointed out above there are always counters to counters. My point though is the point is the control not the contact.

Here’s an accompanying article to that video. From Penetrating the sphere: Geometry of attack, https://www.iliqchuan.com/blogs/qiang/p ... try-attack:
Qiang wrote:In a previous post, I discussed the point of contact in terms of vector components. When you penetrate your opponent’s sphere, you pass the diameter line of the virtual sphere at the point of contact and have technically passed your opponent’s defense. However, just getting past the diameter line is necessary but not sufficient.

One mistake that I frequently made (and probably still frequently make) is to roll and pivot past the diameter line and attack straight away. That tends to only work if you partner or opponent is not attentive to your actions. The problem arises from the fact the force interactions are multidimensional. The point of contact is not a static sphere; rather, it is a dynamic point that changes curvature and moves in space.

Just touching the other side of the diameter line only means you have entered the sphere of defense. It does not necessarily mean you have an appropriate application point. You can penetrate the sphere but still give your opponent enough space to recover as you attack. In essence, your opponent readjusts his sphere to intercept your attack and re-establish your contact outside of the sphere.
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To reach a usable point of application, it may be necessary to pierce in--or penetrate further into the sphere--to get the proper spacing for offense.
ImageImageImage
I realize my above illustrations are somewhat on the abstract side. I blame my engineering training for my love of abstract, idealized models. The concept can be felt readily, or observed as Sifu Sam Chin explains it: https://youtu.be/FLOi0N-A17k


A few more articles on I Liq Chuan point of contact.

From Horizontal Control and the Four Strategies, https://iliqchuan.com/blogs/qiang/horiz ... strategies:
Qiang wrote:When gaining the upper hand position, getting to the horizontal usually works to your advantage. Dropping your opponents into the horizontal plane in effect closes them in the up-down dimension. This makes it much more difficult for them to project force against you and is getting the upper hand into position to attack. From the lower hand horizontal position, it is tougher to achieve the spacing necessary to strike in. To strike from the lower hand position, the elbow extends and the shoulder flexes to straighten the arm. If this starts from the horizontal, the point of contact quickly rolls to the outside the sphere of defense of the upper hand defender. In effect, it's not possible to just slip through when the upper hand has established horizontal control.
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While the upper hand position wants to close to at least the horizontal, the lower hand position has better positioning when the point of contact is opened above horizontal. When above the horizontal, the lower hand has the elbow below the wrist. In this configuration, it is possible (assuming the positioning is not too low) to either attack from the point of contact or invade the sphere of defense to establish the proper spacing to attack. With the wrist above the elbow, the straightening of the arm has a chance of reaching the upper hand defender. If the lower hand position is open enough, the upper hand defender does not re-establish defense on the point of contact (roll the attacker to outside the sphere) before the attack penetrates.

A similar analysis can be applied in the left-right dimensions with the body line. Closing to inside the body line or opening to outside the body line establishes offensive and defensive positions in a similar fashion to opening and closing to the horizontal. So, what do these thought experiments tell us? They illustrate that there is sound reasoning behind the first two of the four strategies. From the outside, close; from the inside open. The upper hand (outside position) should be closing in and down to cut off attacks and establish offense. Likewise, the lower hand (inside position) should be opening out and up to maintain defense and establish angles of attack.


From Point of Contact, https://iliqchuan.com/blogs/qiang/point-contact:
Qiang wrote:In my experience with learning and teaching I-Liq Chuan, I have noticed that a lot of time is spent training the point of contact. Once the basic understanding of body unification is achieved, training can quickly progress to framing movements in terms of the point of contact. The point of contact provides a context for movements and serves as a training aid which guides the training progression.

The way I usually introduce the the point of contact is as a physical link for coupling force into your opponent. To affect your opponent's structure (or control balance via the structure), you need a link to couple your force into your opponent. The most straightforward way to do that would be to grab at the point of contact. The coupling of force can also be done without grabbing. The touch contact needs to align to solid structure (i.e. bone), and the body must unify to the point of contact. When those two conditions are met at the point, usable force can be coupled into the opponent's structure.

The nature of the point of contact is dynamic. Outside of static demonstrations for teaching, the point of contact will be constantly changing. This necessitates attention to the point of contact to perceive the present conditions at the point. The act of focusing the attention to feeling and adapting to the changing point is itself training. Like breathing in sitting meditation, paying attention to the point of contact is a mental focus tool during partner training. Spinning to flow at the point is largely a mental exercise.

Probably most importantly (at least from my point of view as an instructor), the point of contact provides a feedback tool. Whether a student understands body unification or movement applications can be felt from touch. The same touch at the point of contact can be used to provide kinesthetic feedback. Once the correct touch has been demonstrated and felt, the student has a diagnostic to gauge whether the body alignments and movement modifications are correct. The point of contact serves as a training diagnostic for both the instructors and students to assess and correct alignments and movements.


From Spin to flow, http://mindbodykungfu.com/content/spin-flow:
johnny wrote:Spinning to flow seems like such a simplistic exercise. Start on the lower hand position, spin until you land on the upper hand position, and then wait for your partner to do the same thing. One partner moves, while the other partner listens and flows. It is so easy that the exercise bored me when I first learned it. Of course, things always look deceptively simple in the beginning. The more I learned, the more I began to appreciate the utility of starting with the simpler movements of the first spinning hands drill. There is more to the drill than just spinning on top.

Flow is the first movement quality at the point of contact. There is no retreating from the point and no resistance at the point; the point of contact is matched. As the point of contact changes, the quality of non-collapsing and non-resistance is maintained. Flow arises from the continual adaptation to match the change at the point of contact. In order to match the changes, your mind must be attentive to the conditions of the moment. The gaps where the mind wanders leaves gaps in the flow. The primary challenge in the flow exercise lies not in the relatively simple movements, but in maintaining your attention in the moment.

Assuming that the attention can be maintained throughout the drill, the body should remain unified. Awareness of the body (i.e. maintaining the 13 points) is always present, even while dealing with a changing point of contact. Then, movement at the point itself should manifest the 5 qualities of movement. While flowing at the point, the movements should exhibit absorbing and projecting; opening and closing; concave and convex; condensing and expanding; and three-dimensional movement.

Although not an explicit part of the drill, the four energies (north, south, east, and west) are still implicitly involved. The partner spinning up from the lower hand needs to manifest the four energies in order to spin on top. One common problem during the drill is the lower hand parter never manifesting any east (inward pressing) energy while spinning up. Without this energy, it becomes difficult to spin to the upper hand position since the flowing partner has no reason to go concave and draw the hands inside the body line.

Similarly, the flowing partner must be aware the direction of the energy at the point of contact to match and adapt. A common issue for the flowing partner is that the movement is anticipated rather than perceived (or the movement is rote rather than responsive to the conditions). When this happens, the rotation of the forearms is off during the transitions from north, to west, to south. The energies aren't matched since the arm rotation is out of sync with the movement at the point of contact. The lack of attention and and mismatched energies breaks the flow.

There is a lot going on even in the simple flow exercise. Attention is constantly maintained on yourself and to the point of contact. The body must be able to coordinate the five qualities of movement while adapting to the changing point. The four energies are still implicitly present. Many of the aspects of the later spinning hands progressions are implicitly present in even the basic flow drill; they are just de-emphasized for the sake of simplicity. Spinning to flow is pretty basic, but being basic doesn't make flowing mindlessly easy.


A couple more ILC point of contact videos (trailers).

Entry to point of contact at 3:00.

San Da Vol. 2 - Free Fight Training Workshop (English with Russian Translation)
from Federation I Liq Chuan PRO on March 31, 2015:
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/iliqchuansanda2/122207423

Entry to point of contact at 1:45.

San Da Vol. 5 - Timing And Spacing
from Federation I Liq Chuan PRO on April 13, 2015:
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/35962/123806394
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