Stick, adhere, control

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Stick, adhere, control

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:36 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg2AF8_Xc_Q

I have no real interest in anything other than the first 30 or so seconds of this clip, still just break hands boxing as we all complain when it comes to the principles of internal arts. Stick, Adhere, control, my question, does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.







[i][edited one time to correct spelling in subject header][/i]
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby JoeWood on Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:39 pm

Don't chase to stick and don't forget that it is just a means to set up your combo/finisher. It takes practice, add sparring to your regiment.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:11 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Stick, Adhere, control, my question, does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.


I would like to say yes. At least I know and practice methods that could easily be learned and practiced in a sparring environment. But still, I don't think it's all that simple. On one hand, I think that you first of all need a very different mind-set than the average point sparring or boxing one. First and foremost, your attitude should be to go in, make any kind of contact and stay in contact. That's a very different strategy than bouncing in and out or trying to open up a guard with feints and different combos. And still it depends on who you are up against and what circumstances surrounding it. People never act or behave as you suspect, so there's not really a simple answer to the question. There are very tricky bouncers who just won't let you stick, and there are also throwers who love stationary contact. So there's not really any one-size-fits-all type of method for sticking-adhere-control. But there are for sure some methods that can be very successful if you get it right.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby dspyrido on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:44 pm

Stick, adhere, control - an internal concept? But it happens all the time when grappling even if it's with or without a grip.

But to stick/adhere/control in sparring ... Is it relevant if there are no barriers to fist meets face? If they keep backing away is it even possible to stick/adhere/control?

It's a point in time activity so trying to stick at the wrong time or place is like trying to deflect, attack, throw at the wrong time & place. For me it has a sweet spot of inside striking range and works best against an opponent trying to barrel me (ie they are committed to a heavy attack like trying to do a take down).

As an aside - I see dodging as the ultimate soft method of defence. Why use 4 ounces if 0 ounces is possible i.e. avoiding being hit or contact until it is the right point to strike.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby Subitai on Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:28 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg2AF8_Xc_Q

I have no real interest in anything other than the first 30 or so seconds of this clip, still just break hands boxing as we all complain when it comes to the principles of internal arts.

Stick, Adhere, control, my question, does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.


To be fair your question in BOLD is really about striking (usually starting from a distance) and assuming you're not starting out grappling or with crossed hands.

To answer you, YES I do it all the time and that's what most people ask about in private and seminars that I do.

Only someone who has experience in both Traditional teachings and ACTUALLY has fought before will have the possibility of transmitting = Stick, Adhere and Control in a realistic sense. (kung fu wise i.e)

- It sounds overly simplistic but it's either you have the patience to set up your opponent and learn to take what he gives you
or
- You have to learn to be offensive and manufacture your own chances for Stick, Adhere and control.

* You have to assess just a few things at 1st. Does he strike and withdraw immediately or is he willing to close and grapple.

In either case, IMO it works best when you're not in a hurry and be patient. Even multiple attempts or an extra 30 - 90 secs to read your opponent is not asking allot.

Stick and Adhere doesn't do much vs a person trying to hurt you if you are not also exerting some form of control in concert. Control can be the most literal thing, as in a grab or it can be controlling the space, distance or evening timing whilst you have a stick point. For example and Jab is fast and withdrawls back to position quickly... you don't attempt to just stick / adhere to it with out other things like some sort of control.

Last tip is timing, many beginners don't understand what I define as Primary (i.e. faster methods) vs Secondary (i.e. slower methods) There are methods to use that are quick and happen in a short beat of time and then there are other methods that develop slower AFTER A STICK POINT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED.
In Taiji for example...slant flying. You don't try this method vs someone who floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee unless you can 1st establish a Stick point + some sort of control (i.e. usually a grab ) = then typically you can step behind and send him flying. All of that is useless if your opponent stings you from the outside and you cannot establish control 1st.

In a traditional sense VS this type of opponent, if you wish to gain a stick (control point) you need to understand and match the timing of your opponent with something that is quicker developing = In my Taiji for example, strum the lute with raising leg to kick is a better choice.

I could also mention other things like how you manage your openings or gates, they can invite or help you to establish a stick point. I.e. similar to "Attack by draw".
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby Bao on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:44 am

Does he strike and withdraw immediately or is he willing to close and grapple.

In either case, IMO it works best when you're not in a hurry and be patient. Even multiple attempts or an extra 30 - 90 secs to read your opponent is not asking allot.

Stick and Adhere doesn't do much vs a person trying to hurt you if you are not also exerting some form of control in concert. Control can be the most literal thing, as in a grab or it can be controlling the space, distance or evening timing whilst you have a stick point. For example and Jab is fast and withdrawls back to position quickly... you don't attempt to just stick / adhere to it with out other things like some sort of control.


I agree with very much in your nice post. :) But IME control comes from sticking. The way I look at sticking is to not trying to catch strikes and attacks as they come at you. That is exactly a part of the sparring mind-set that I am very much against. From a Tai Chi perspective, you must connect physically even before he attacks. In a fighting situation, your hands should lie on top of his hands as soon as you see him raising them up to form a guard. If you are not sure if someone will attack, go out of kicking distance or even better: still go in close, connect by touch and feel what he does. Now you must be aware of and feel every slight change he does. This is as I said a very different approach than a sparring match. There's no jumping in and out, there is only what happens from this initial contact and after the, the fight is over.

If you can not connect physically, you must connect by distance and angle. In sparring or in a competition, you must go in close immediately, keep contact and continue to move in for contact again and again. And again, If you can not connect physically, you must try to focus on distance hopefully outside his reach, but connect by distance and angle. Don't attack from distance, go in for contact.

If you go by this approach you need two things, you need to be very soft and you need to rely on tingjin to decide what you do. Your touch can decide must faster what you can do, much faster than both your eyes and your intellectual thoughts.

This Tai Chi approach of fighting is something that works very, very well for real fighting, IME much better than the general sparring mentality. ... but also take into the equation not only that I have used this method in real fighting situations. :o ... , but also that I really suck when it comes to a more general sparring environment. ;D
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby johnwang on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:15 am

Bao wrote: In a fighting situation, your hands should lie on top of his hands as soon as you see him raising them up to form a guard.

Agree! You should move in toward your opponent. You should not wait for your opponent to move in toward you. You should try to establish contact initially.

Here is an example.



You want to separate your opponent's arms away from his body. There are 4 possibilities. You can separate your opponent's arms

1. both upward.
2. both downward.
3. right arm up, left arm down.
4. right arm down, left arm up.

Here is a right arm down, left arm up separate hands "entering strategy".



If your opponent moves in fast, you can use "double spears" to establish that contact.

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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby Subitai on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:06 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote: In a fighting situation, your hands should lie on top of his hands as soon as you see him raising them up to form a guard.

Agree! You should move in toward your opponent. You should not wait for your opponent to move in toward you. You should try to establish contact initially.

Here is an example.



You want to separate your opponent's arms away from his body. There are 4 possibilities. You can separate your opponent's arms

1. both upward.
2. both downward.
3. right arm up, left arm down.
4. right arm down, left arm up.

Here is a right arm down, left arm up separate hands "entering strategy".



If your opponent moves in fast, you can use "double spears" to establish that contact.




Hahaha, Chicken or the egg. Who is really moving 1st????

John, in your 1st video "Parry Wrap Headlock".
You did exactly what I'm always saying that I prefer to do . Your opponent punched at you 1st and then you parried. It doesn't matter how subtle it was...you let your opponent move in 1st with a punch and then you countered.

In your second video, once again you are just reacting to what your opponent is giving you. The more he attacks you...the more you follow him. That's exactly what I've always said.
Your "double spears" movement is the same circling hands that we use prior to Brush Knee Palm strike in Taiji. One up and one down is basically "Ying / Yang Hands circling" in my school.

* Also to expand upon my point...in your double spears video, you are just doing it simple I realize that, but you are not really controlling him very well. If you were, he could not keep up the attack and would have to change.

For example, I would always take it further, after I gain a stick point...the same adhering hand will either:
1) Grab his wrist for example or

2) slide up the arm and press the 2nd gate (ie elbow) towards the center. This will disrupt his speed and power to slow him down and leave him open for something else.

You videos are doing exactly what I was saying.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby johnwang on Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:41 pm

Subitai wrote:Also to expand upon my point...in your double spears video, you are just doing it simple I realize that, but you are not really controlling him very well. If you were, he could not keep up the attack and would have to change.

That's just for training. In the idea situation when you use "double spear (downward separate hands)" and parry down your opponent's both arms, you can move in for

- double under hooks,
- bear hug,
- single leg,
- double legs.
- ...

The "double spears" (my new term) came from the "zombie guard" (also my new term). It's probably the most common "entering strategy" used in SC. You move toward your opponent and establish contact.

Image

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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:58 am

Great examples JW. Thanks!

And thank you for the support. :D
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:13 am

I have always considered control first and foremost, dictating the actual action of the fight. The distance is at your command by foot work while the contact is at the necessity of the fist. To initiate an opponent's attack is by initiating a defense, if you strike and he does not defend by contact you follow by foot, you recognize full and empty by his motion, you know his weak side so you step on his weak side to force the reaction, already this gives you the notion of his necessary move you control that with you intention. If he defends by contact , it tells you where every other weapon is located, your control is in forcing action.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:16 am

Stick, Adhere, control, my question, does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.


If one can not do it in some type of drill, how would one be able to do it free flow.
Reading the comments, some have talked about sticking, if one can not or does not understand how to
stick in a very physical sense, I would say that talking about sticking before contact is made can be misleading.

Understanding how to at the contact point, will also allow one the understanding of how to do it before contact is made, but does not necessarily confer the ability to do so...Just working at the point of contact is not so easy...

Sticking is not grabbing, Sticking by its nature already implies control unless you're the one being stuck to. If some one can really stick to another they already control the point of contact.

Sticking involves understanding and being able to use the contact point. In answer to the OP question. “How to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring”



Start by understanding and knowing how to control one's own center.
Understand how to adapt one's shape to maintain a center.
Understand how to create a center at the point of contact and what rotation does.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:32 am



Nice ;)

one might start by asking about the shape and the why?
They use the same shape against different styles with the same result.
Why do they use this shape, what does it do or create?

Image

Spheres Everywhere. I do not know if Prof. Cheng would agree that the center of the sphere can be at a place other than the center of your body. However, I learned from one of my teachers, Sam Chin Fan-siong, that the center of the spherical surface at the point of contact with the opponent does not even have to be within your body—it can be anywhere as long as (a) your body is inside the extension of the spherical surface at the contact point and (b) the force you exert is perpendicularly outward from that surface.

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

What he talks about here is being shown in the other clips.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby marvin8 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:49 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:Stick, Adhere, control, my question, does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.

If you are using the general definitions, fighters in Muay Thai, MMA, boxing, etc. control their opponents using hand traps, arm traps, thai plum, head control, etc. in sparring and fights. They build these skills through shadowboxing, pad drills, partner drills, technical sparring, sparring and competition fights.

If you are asking about the IMA definition for stick and adhere, from other's translation, "adhere" has more meaning than just "stick." From another site:
Audi wrote:For a short answer, "sticking" means staying in contact with the opponent so that he cannot separate to execute an effective technique. "Adhering" means making the opponent stay in contact with you so that you can uproot him and make him stay in contact with your technique. . . .

What is called "adhering" is arguably the Yang part. Where the opponent seeks pressure, you gladly offer it, but perhaps 10 percent less then what he needs. This way, the opponent always tries for more, and you can make him follow you to his disadvantage.

If you stick to the opponent and make the opponent stick to you, you always have leverage to affect his empty and full. You have him coming and going.

Here's Adam Mizner's definition of stick, adhere, and control.

“They stick to us. We do not stick to them.”

Published on Apr 3, 2016
how is the stick in Taiji quan different to the sticky hands in other arts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_9sqN3MMgI&t=9s

Excerpt from, Four Important Skills For Push Hands and Fighting, by Zhang Yun:
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/Z-N-L-S/arti_znls.htm:
Zhang Yun wrote:1. Zhan 粘

The original meaning of Zhan is to adhere or stick something up. In Taiji Quan practice it means to get your opponent to follow you a while under your control. It looks as if your opponent is struck to your hand (or the other part of your body). The technical term of this is “stick a person up” (It does not mean to grip or hold him up!). If you can do this well continually, your opponent appears to follow you and jump as if you have bounced him. This works because you have shaken and moved his root and cause him to lose his balance and he will try to use you to regain it. When the opponent has lost his balance and tries to use you to keep his balance, he must follow you to move. While most of the time Zhan is used to get your opponent to follow you in an upward direction, it can be in any direction. When using Zhan, you do not use your force to move your opponent, instead of he is moved by his own force but by your control. So it is called "borrow force from your opponent and use his force to beat him back". To do Zhan well, you must have really good basic kungfu, like sensitivity and integration, and also understand the basic principles very well. Thus the level of your Taiji Quan skill always can be judged from this skill.

The key point of making Zhan well is to make your opponent lose his balance. Basically there are two kind of methods for doing Zhan. With the first method, you can use some skill to lead or seduce your opponent to loss his balance. It is called "lead coming in to fall down into a empty place". It will cause that he wants to use something to maintain his balance. At this time, give the part of your body (most time just use the touching point between you and the opponent) to him and then he will be controlled by you. The more balance he lose, the more force he will be use for keeping balance, so the more available force you can borrow from him and the easier you can do Zhan. Most time, it is difficult to seduce the opponent to lose his balance directly, so that the second method is used more often. With this method the first thing you need to do is to unsettle your opponent, sometimes called giving him some trouble first. This means that you should use some skills to make him feel uncomfortable, as if lose his balance, and must adjust his body. When he feels in the trouble or off-balanced, his reaction offers you a chance to do Zhan.

Choosing the right time and direction is important to do Zhan well. For example, if you can make your opponent feel compressed down really, you will probably have a good chance to use Zhan on him. Pay attention to his reaction, if you feel his legs push his body up, just raise up your hand and you can make him jump up by his own force. When he jumps, you can use some other technique to beat him. This will save a lot of energy and is thus real Taiji Quan skill. For timing, if your hands raise too early, there is no enough reaction force from the opponent; if your hands raise too late, the opponent just get time to regain his balance and you lose your chance. In both cases your Zhan will not work. The best time to use Zhan is when his reaction force almost at its maximum and the next change has not happened yet. This is the time when it is most difficult for him to make a change. For direction, you should follow the direction of the opponent's reaction force. Although it is the best direction, it may be too difficult. For additional safety, you can use the technique of changing his direction slightly. For example move your hand in an arc. A little bit of change can confuse your opponent and thus be very helpful. The other important technique is to keep a little bit force in the reverse direction of the opponent's reaction. It is called "Yin and Yang supplement each other". In above example, when you raise your hand up, at the same time keep a little bit force to push down, it will make the opponent feel your downward push still there so that he will keep his reaction to against you. If your opponent's reaction force is not enough, you can use one hand to Zhan him and your other hand to help, that is push him according to the direction of his reaction. But this help should be light, smooth, soft, and coordinate with the other hand. It is a common technique which require a good integration of your body. If your opponent does not really know Taiji Quan, that is if his sensitivity is slow and his changes are clear and straight, Zhan can be done easy and you can have incredible results. But if your opponent has Taiji Quan skills, using Zhan will be difficult. The interesting thing is that usually the result is not good if you use your mind too much to do this skill. You should keep in natural way and do it naturally. In fact, most times Zhan is not used big and clearly. It is always mixed with or included in some other skills.


windwalker wrote:

Nice ;)

Dasha is a good fighter. However when fighting, she looks like a regular Muay Thai fighter. I don't see the use of IMA's "adhere."

Uploaded on Jan 31, 2011
曾家意力拳
I Liq Chuan instructor - Dasha Sergeeva recent claim of the Muay Thai Championship title:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fDg2Lh-TDA
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:43 pm

Dasha is a good fighter. However when fighting, she looks like a regular Muay Thai fighter. I don't see the use of IMA's "adhere."


Didn't even know who she was, it was just a clip that I felt might help to illustrate some points.

You've posted a lot of information, was wondering if you feel you can do what is mentioned in it?
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