Stick, adhere, control

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby marvin8 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:39 am

windwalker wrote:
Dasha is a good fighter. However when fighting, she looks like a regular Muay Thai fighter. I don't see the use of IMA's "adhere."


Didn't even know who she was, it was just a clip that I felt might help to illustrate some points.
I don't know her well either. I think her name is Daria. She is an I Liq Chuan instructor in Russia. IMO, some of the skills she drilled did not transfer to an actual fight.

windwalker wrote:You've posted a lot of information, was wondering if you feel you can do what is mentioned in it?
External strategies, yes. For internal, I can do action/reaction, push/pull or change directions, etc., to get similar effects. But, I don't know if that counts as internal.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Steve James on Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:55 am

An old conversation of "Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui"

http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12621

"Hua, Na, Da, Fa" would also make interesting discussion.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:01 am

marvin8 wrote:
Dasha is a good fighter. However when fighting, she looks like a regular Muay Thai fighter. I don't see the use of IMA's "adhere.

I don't know her well either. I think her name is Daria. She is an I Liq Chuan instructor in Russia. IMO, some of the skills she drilled did not transfer to an actual fight.




The big boxing gloves have a lot to do with it. The control skills are grappling based and based on touch and sensitivity. So much is lost on that style/skillset of s/up grappling when you wear big gloves. Or is that totally lost on the likes of you eh?

If you were doing sparring drills with and without boxing gloves as well as doing different formats you should be able to know and understand this for yourself and know the difference. As it is you take any opportunity to tell people like Dasha that you can't see her transfering her training and skills to her fighting.. Try a drill where one person wears big gloves and is striking, and the other isn't and has some sticky/push hands skills and can only use s/up grappling. Then change it up and do Sanda style sparring. The difference of what you can practically and pragmatically do should be more obvious. And you should also be able to witness these skills being used against 'fighting'... at whatever level you guys are.

If that can't set you straight, then do us all a favour; give up and go away.

Take her gloves off in that fight and it would open up that skillset massively for her as it is she cannot feel and control someone with her hands as the primary tool.
In ILC the set sticky hands exercises are about the hands and the way they control around the wrist/ forearm. Now try the ILC spinning and sticky hands exercise with big gloves. No? ::)
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Steve James on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:08 am

Personally, wearing gloves affects tactics, not sensitivity. Beginners (in phs) usually start by sticking with the back of the hand/wrist. But, the whole body should be able to stick. I agree, though, that closed gloves limit grappling tactics.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:11 am

Steve James wrote:Personally, wearing gloves affects tactics, not sensitivity. Beginners (in phs) usually start by sticking with the back of the hand/wrist. But, the whole body should be able to stick. I agree, though, that closed gloves limit grappling tactics.




boxing gloves don't effect the sensitivity (what you feel) through your hands...???
are you on drugs?
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:18 am

You do understand the people who work with weapons and such need to be able extend through
them to feel or sense what or how its reacting with another weapon...Boxers train to hit for the most part, taiji and other arts like them if one trains it
the gloves can be adapted....The ones that do have problems are the arts requiring a grabbing action which due to the gloves design is hard if not impossible to do.

The big boxing gloves have a lot to do with it. The control skills are grappling based and based on touch and sensitivity. So much is lost on that style/skillset of s/up grappling when you wear big gloves. Or is that totally lost on the likes of you eh?


Don't know who your refering to, I've couched and worked with those who did box.
They wanted some tips on what to do in a clinch and how to make theirs more effective.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:29 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Steve James on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:20 am

boxing gloves don't effect the sensitivity (what you feel) through your hands...???


:) They don't stop one from sticking. But, afa sensitivity, one can be sensitive the length of a spear.

Now, if you're talking about fingertip sensitivity or playing the piano, yeah, gloves have an effect. However, we've done plenty of striking exercises with gloves where it's necessary to use "sticking."

are you on drugs?


:) Maybe a bit later or on the weekend.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby marvin8 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:23 am

I don't really care for the restricted rules and starting positions.

Here Daria is without gloves. She is a good fighter. However IMO, I do not see the internal adhere skills transfer over from the drills.

Published on Apr 9, 2016
Push Hands competition Moving step
Moscow Wushu Stars 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzv0XOEaNi0

Published on Apr 9, 2016
Push Hands competition Moving step
Moscow Wushu Stars 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pDzE3ZMya0
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:29 am

Steve James wrote:
boxing gloves don't effect the sensitivity (what you feel) through your hands...???


:) They don't stop one from sticking. But, afa sensitivity, one can be sensitive the length of a spear.

Now, if you're talking about fingertip sensitivity or playing the piano, yeah, gloves have an effect. However, we've done plenty of striking exercises with gloves where it's necessary to use "sticking."

are you on drugs?


:) Maybe a bit later or on the weekend.


you're talking a bunch of shit Steve. the difference in grappling sensitivity and control with or without large boxing gloves is massive.
If that's lost on you, then my posts are not meant for you.

Stop using an ambiguous "sticking" to hide behind please.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:35 am

marvin8 wrote:I don't really care for the restricted rules and starting positions.

Here Daria is without gloves. She is a good fighter. However IMO, I do not see the internal adhere skills transfer over from the drills.


Define what you mean by "internal adhere skills".
the skills being developed in ILC sticky hands and spinning hands are not obvious just by watching them on video.
And I am not aware of these skills being formally classified as either internal or external in any martial art; I think you are taking an opportunity and a liberty to do that all by yourself. What is the reason you include the word internal here, to what end, please explain.


The tai chi push hands terminology is not used either and the skills being trained are not one and the same.
What do you know about ILC training to be able to say "internal adhere skills" are not being transfered and for that statement to actually carry any weight and be credible ?

I suggest you know next to fuck all about ILC, for starters.
Who have you trained under in that system, and how long for please?
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby Steve James on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:59 am

the difference in grappling sensitivity and control with or without large boxing gloves is massive.


I wrote in my first post on this:
I agree, though, that closed gloves limit grappling tactics.


But, you wrote:

Stop using an ambiguous "sticking" to hide behind please.


Well, obviously, this thread is titled "Stick, adhere, control," so I don't know how my use of sticking is a way to hide. In fact, I was simply pointing out that there are sensitivity drills using gloves and that sensitivity (or sticking) is not limited to the hands. I could also add that traps, beats, parries, and qinna all require sensitivity.

But, again, yeah, wearing closed "boxing" gloves (aopt open mma gloves) will limit grappling tactics -if only because one cannot use one's fingers-- and that hands are less sensitive when they are covered.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:01 am

windwalker wrote:You do understand the people who work with weapons and such need to be able extend through
them to feel or sense what or how its reacting with another weapon...Boxers train to hit for the most part, taiji and other arts like them if one trains it
the gloves can be adapted....The ones that do have problems are the arts requiring a grabbing action which due to the gloves design is hard if not impossible to do.

The big boxing gloves have a lot to do with it. The control skills are grappling based and based on touch and sensitivity. So much is lost on that style/skillset of s/up grappling when you wear big gloves. Or is that totally lost on the likes of you eh?


Don't know who your refering to, I've couched and worked with those who did box.
They wanted some tips on what to do in a clinch and how to make theirs more effective.


I edited my previous reply to take your name and quote out. It was an oversight, my reply was purely for that irritant marvin..
I'm not saying you can't use any contact in boxing or feel nothing - but the difference is massive, that's the point.

At the speed a boxer can disengage or punch round it becomes a dangerous tactic. Why?
Because the control you can exert is completely different, just knowing where they are at any given time isn't enough.
The control at the point of contact is far far less reliable. Against anyone good it's not reliable and would better just go to clinch.

I am not talking really talking about clinch here, the contact in an actual clinch proper stops being about hand sensitivity.
So it would actually be better to forego using your gloves to attach and just go into a hold/ clinch
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:04 am

"You cannot hit with your head, shoulder, forearm, or elbow.
You cannot hit with an open glove, the inside of the glove, the wrist, the backhand, or the side of the hand."

some rule sets for boxing. Basically it means you can only hit with the tip of the glove.
Which as "Cloudz" mentioned is correct, its quite hard if not impossible to use taiji type sticking skills.
However saying this, the strategy to employ these types of skill sets is very different for those who do
use gloves. Its something that has to be consciously trained, not something that transfers just because one practices taiji
big mistake to think so.
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Re: Stick, adhere, comntrol

Postby marvin8 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:05 am

cloudz wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I don't really care for the restricted rules and starting positions.

Here Daria is without gloves. She is a good fighter. However IMO, I do not see the internal adhere skills transfer over from the drills.


Define what you mean by "internal adhere skills".
the skills being developed in ILC sticky hands and spinning hands are not obvious.

windwalker wrote:Sticking involves understanding and being able to use the contact point. In answer to the OP question. “How to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring”

Some ILC skills that I see starting at 1:33 in the demonstration, I don't see this in "actual sparring" or competition. I was responding to Windwalker's initial post, above.

The OP,
Wanderingdragon wrote:. . . Stick, Adhere, control, my question, does anyone actually know how to achieve this dynamic in actual sparring / fighting other than in prearranged drills.

Why be so rude? -shrug- I said IMO, emphasized with bold.
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stick, adhere, control

Postby cloudz on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:07 am

Steve James wrote:
the difference in grappling sensitivity and control with or without large boxing gloves is massive.


I wrote in my first post on this:
I agree, though, that closed gloves limit grappling tactics.


But, you wrote:

Stop using an ambiguous "sticking" to hide behind please.


Well, obviously, this thread is titled "Stick, adhere, control," so I don't know how my use of sticking is a way to hide. In fact, I was simply pointing out that there are sensitivity drills using gloves and that sensitivity (or sticking) is not limited to the hands. I could also add that traps, beats, parries, and qinna all require sensitivity.

But, again, yeah, wearing closed "boxing" gloves (aopt open mma gloves) will limit grappling tactics -if only because one cannot use one's fingers-- and that hands are less sensitive when they are covered.


FFS
if we are talking about sensitivity and boxing gloves then we obviously (by definition and basic common sense) are talking about the hands sensitivity and control.
You stand corrected as per my first reply to you.
Nothing has changed, blab away all you like ;D
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