A list of fundamentals exercices (be)for(e) IMA training ?

[Praeludium]

Hello,

since I'm a beginner (in Xinyiliuhequan), I'm very curious about all the foundation work, and more particularly the kind of foundation that is not specific to one style or school but considered universal. I'm not able to see my teacher often unfortunately.
This is a very important subject to me because I know the typical body of a XXIth century sedentary westerner is probably extremely far away from the body ancient chinese peoples had.
And unfortunately I kind of grew up being not a physical person at all for many reasons, so even though I've undone some of that in the last years, I'm looking to work on my physical and physiological basis.

So, what would be your basic exercises to lay a good foundation ?
Are there exercises that just about everyone do and should do, regardless of what kind of MA he/she practices ?
Are there exercises specific to your school that you think would be beneficial to everyone ?
Do you consider there are skills that you have to be able to prove you have (holding a stance for a certain time, being able to do a particular stretch, etc.) ?

Here's a link to a blog about San Huang Pao Chui (if I understood well), which is about as internal as you'll get AFAIK. The article is "External comes first".
Of course he describes elite training in the ancient times, the practice for an amateur adult beginner like me is necessarily totally different in objectives and methods. But I find the idea very interesting.



Currently I'm doing soft, static stretches, a few basics exercises such as static push-ups, hanging from a bar and slow body weight squats, and I'm beginning to add the ballistic stretches you see everywhere in chinese martial arts.
I'm under the impression that the focus has to be on basic flexibility, mobility and a little bit of strength so that you can have the proper support in your body. Maybe I should add the basic Mabu, Xubu, etc. stances ?

Since english isn't my first language and I'm not sure if I'm clear, please allow me to say again that I'm looking for the most basics exercises, to be practiced in a re-educational way. It's not about energy and all those very advanced theories. Not a least for a few years?.

Thanks

[bohdi]

Hot yoga for stretching, and pavel's kettlebell workout for strength.

[lineofintent]

hi

this maybe of interest to you...

Chinese Internal Fighting Arts - Foundation Course

Developing whole body connected power through 24 traditional exercises passed down by the old masters. These progressively challenging exercises are a form of Li Gong (strength work) and Nei Gong (internal power work), when trained on a daily basis over a period of time they develop tremendous power and speed, grounding, suppleness of the joints and spine, vibrant health of the internal organs, and lay a foundation for further study of the northern Chinese fighting arts of Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and Baguaquan as well as arts such as Aikido. The teaching is given in great detail, paying attention to good alignment and posture, harmonious blending of loose and tight forces, and correct principles.



Stage 1 - 24 Nei Gong Exercises - developing perfect structure.

Stage 2 - Training the Liu He (six harmonies), unifying the Xin,Yi, Qi and Li.


from

http://www.warriorguardsthemountain.com/downloads

That is a link to my site, many people on this forum have taken the course and so far almost all have been very positive about their development through the practices.

wishing you all the best with your training

Alex

[kenneth fish]

Find someone who understands stance work. Learn the aligments and the opposing tensions that make for solid yet mobile and aligned stances. Start with horse, bow, and diao bu ("cat stance"). Learn how to stay relaxed in the thigh/hip articulation while maintianing a solid structure. Train to hold deep stances. Train moving from stance to stance with force "like grinding a mortor in a pestle", moving from your feet through your legs.

[johnwang]

Try to punch without using your arms. Try to develop "body method" first and add arms movement in later.

[MaartenSFS]

You're asking to learn half the art. A good teacher should already have a system of warm-ups, stretching and foundation-building exercises. These are critical. The art won't function without it. If your teacher doesn't have this he is not interested in you developing skills any time soon, doesn't know how to teach or doesn't have the skills himself. OR he could be old school and wants you to grind Caijibu (or whatever he's been teaching you) all day long. I did it for a while and it was not my thing.. It works, though.

In my opinion, each art, when taught well, should have its own carefully selected regimen of things to train that produces the intended skills. The XYLHQ I've seen is very minimalist. The best Gongfu I've ever seen was from a XYLHQ master. He was a beast. But his students did not posses those skills after years of learning from him. He did tell me that most good masters teach you the most important things first and everything else is to keep you coming back.

At this stage it may be wise to stick with what you are given, if you trust that this teacher has the skills and is willing to teach you to develop them. Talk to him about it. See what he says.

[yeniseri]

Fundamental exercises associated with present day IMA training is an oxymoron! Yes, I acknowledge that I am a moron but I hope not to show my bias.

I did not start with shuaijiao training thought I came to it with one of my last teachers, the warm ups, "jibengong" and conditioning of shuaijiao are realistinc enough to be representative of form and function. IMA appears to lack that unison meaning the type of jibengong done in IMA is not reflective of realistic utility.

[everything]

Hot yoga for stretching, and pavel's kettlebell workout for strength.

I haven't tried hot yoga, but +1 for yoga and Pavel KB. More GPP (general physical preparedness) than most any amateur adult beginner will ever do. The KB (try simple and sinister) routine is highly "scalable". You can do it every day and have energy left for your main activities. Your progress and level is very easily measurable/trackable. The routine is insanely minimal, but strangely, not really boring.

[johnwang]

Just got this from my reading.

Those so called "3 internal" CMA systems, it has value in health for old and sick, but without going through hard serious training, one can assume that he can become super human being, this idea has mislead the CMA development big time.

[C.J.W.]

Just got this from my reading.

Those so called "3 internal" CMA systems, it has value in health for old and sick, but without going through hard serious training, one can assume that he can become super human being, this idea has mislead the CMA development big time.

Picking on internal arts again, John?

What the author wrote may be true with watered-down internal arts meant for public consumption, but the traditional XY/BG/TJ I've been exposed to will work you just as hard -- if not harder -- as other CMA systems, albeit in different manners.

[johnwang]

Picking on internal arts again, John?

Today, I just heard another Chen Taiji teacher passed away in Houston, Tx at the age of 63. Compare to my long fist teacher who is still going strong after his 90 birthday. "Taiji for health" will need further prove. IMO, you can't maintain your health if you don't sweat.

[MaartenSFS]

I agree with John. That being said, the Taijiquan that I did made me sweat profusely. I tend to sweat a lot regardless, though...

[Praeludium]

Hello,

thanks for answering.
There are some things I'd like to do but it will probably be later in life (yoga, kettlebell), since I can't really afford to practice them now. The stretches I'm doing are from the Yinyoga book though (but it's more like backyard yoga right now !).
Isn't working on strengh using maximal tension on the whole chain (as Tsatsouline suggests) taking the risk of being counterproductive for IMA though ?
Kind of like the difference between systema push-ups and the kind of push-ups a gymnast would do - both are fine, they just serve very different purpose...

I'll work on the stance suggested, and also on the body method without the arms, since I can use it on Siba chui.
I'll also have a look on Alex Kozma's material, probably in April (:

Concerning my teacher and the curriculum I'm following, I think he gave me quite a lot of material to play around (Siba Chui, a few steps, a few animals, Beng Quan even though it's more XingYi).
I know he's only giving me a very small fragments of the system, even though he's a very generous guy all around.
He seems to like to see how you react, how you work, and then give you keys to understanding and more material. But not following a precise laid-out cursus, I think.
I'll ask him about body conditioning, and the basic stances, which I know he knows, since he practiced Vo Vietnam and Shaoling for dozens of years.
He did not give me only one movement to grind (would have been fine for me).
It's a question I have been asking myself : will I ever be able to get to know the whole system ? I just can't tell at this point, so I don't think too much about it.

Anyway, I like to explore things by myself, it's how I work, and that's why I made this post. I just avoid mixing up everything : when I practice Xinyi, I practice Xinyi period.

[C.J.W.]

Picking on internal arts again, John?

Today, I just heard another Chen Taiji teacher passed away in Houston, Tx at the age of 63. Compare to my long fist teacher who is still going strong after his 90 birthday. "Taiji for health" will need further prove. IMO, you can't maintain your health if you don't sweat.

Hmm....okay. First of all, just because you know a few Taiji practitioners who died young and that your LF teacher is old and still healthy don't really prove anything; it's just biased anecdotal evidence. Secondly, I'd be very interested in knowing what kinds of exercises your LF teacher has been doing in the past 20 years. Does he do Qigong? Sitting meditation? Does he still practice with the same intensity he did when he was in his prime? There's a good chance he's internalized his LF training.

And I believe you were thinking about CMC when you made the comment implying that Taiji guys don't sweat when they practice. It should be made clear that CMC admonished against "excessive sweating" -- not sweating in general -- based on his knowledge in traditional Chinese medicine, which teaches people to avoid overly rigorous exercise for health maintenance.

No legitimate IMA teacher would ever make the claim that one can master an internal art without breaking a sweat during practice.

[everything]

There are some things I'd like to do but it will probably be later in life (yoga, kettlebell), since I can't really afford to practice them now. The stretches I'm doing are from the Yinyoga book though (but it's more like backyard yoga right now !).
Isn't working on strengh using maximal tension on the whole chain (as Tsatsouline suggests) taking the risk of being counterproductive for IMA though ?

These are "helper" activities. Interesting question on tension. The KB swing and TGU movements are extremely functional. There is some tension/relaxation where it needs to be, not tension/tension everywhere. Yin/yang. Someone who's more expert will probably weigh in. You probably don't have to do them super "hard style". I'd recommend at least try them and basic yoga (like sun salutations) at least 10x and decide for yourself. That can just be a "waking up" routine and not exercise.