Fist under elbow

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Fist under elbow

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:27 am

Thought you might like this? Maybe not..... but I wrote it anyway ;)

https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com/2017/03/02/fist-under-elbow-and-natural-posture/

Fist Under Elbow, and natural posture
MARCH 2, 2017 / TAICHINOTEBOOK / EDIT
Here I want to discuss what a natural posture means in Tai Chi Chuan. I was working on the posture we call ‘Fist under elbow’ with a student today. The posture looks like this:

fist-under-elbow
Fist under elbow – Yang Cheng-Fu

The word translated as ‘fist’ could also mean ‘punch’, so you could equally call the posture, ‘Punch under elbow’. It looks a bit like the Judo Chop I talked about recently, but it’s not done like that at all in application. Instead of a chopping, downward, movement it’s a forward and outwards, palm strike done with the left hand. You can see this immediately when you see it done in motion. Here’s Yang Jun, the grandson of Yang Cheng-Fu who is pictured above, teaching the movement in his family’s style of Tai Chi.


You might ask why your other hand is punching under the elbow. I was always taught this was a hidden technique, where you’d turn the left hand into a deflection of the opponent’s attack and punch them with your right, but in the Tai Chi form it wasn’t show explicitly, and the punch was hidden away under the elbow… In application, it looked a lot like a little bit of Wing Chun Kung Fu.

I always have doubts about the validity of these sorts of explanations though. Firstly, I don’t know why you’d want to hide a technique like this? Who are you hiding it from, and why? And it’s not an especially deadly technique, so it’s not like it is dangerous for people to see it. There are much more dangerous techniques shown openly in the form. And secondly, if you don’t actually practice it then you’ll never actually be able to do it under pressure, so hiding things away is not an ideal practice method.

I think it’s much more likely that the posture itself has special cultural significance (as say, part of a religious ritual, or maybe it relates to Chinese cosmology), so was included in the Tai Chi form sequence, or perhaps it’s something of a signature move that was handed down over the generations from an older martial art, and has lost its original meaning, but remained as a kind of nod of respect to the forefathers.

Either way, it’s in the Tai Chi form now, and shows no sign of being removed, so we might as well get on with learning it properly.

My point in writing this article was that I find students generally don’t perform this posture particularly well. Perhaps it’s something to do with the arm position being slightly uncomfortable unless you can relax sufficiently, but it seems particularly suited to making mistakes. Maybe it’s because it looks a bit like an “on guard!” posture, but if you ask a student to take up this posture they will invariably hunch the shoulders, or make their leading arm too stiff and aggressive, or get the angle of the hand and fingers all wrong.

Here’s an example of what I mean. Look at how tense this guy’s arms are:

1906042-tai-chi-posture-fist-under-elbow-art-of-self-defense-stock-photo

He’s holding up his right elbow instead of letting it drop. His left arm is almost locked straight and both arms are too high: Instead of ‘sinking the chi’ he’s letting it rise up, which makes him unsteady.

In Tai Chi the shoulders should naturally round and the elbows should drop – this makes your posture softer and more relaxed – ‘sung‘, as we say in Tai Chi.

If I was to walk up to the person above practicing on the beach and at the moment they formed their Fist Under Elbow I was to slap their arm away at the elbow then the chances are that I’d severely compromise their structure and balance, possibly knocking them over, giving me ample room to attack.

In comparison, if you look at the picture of Yang Cheng-Fu above again, then you can see he is much more relaxed and comfortable in his stance. You get the feeling that if you tried to slap his arm away he’d be able to just let his arm go with your motion, and let it swing back around and slap you in the face! (This was exactly what happened to me the first time I got hands-on with my Tai Chi teacher, so I can talk from experience!)

Yang Cheng-Fu’s more natural posture means that his centre of gravity is within himself in the area of the dantien. And because mind and body are linked, it’s more likely that his mind is focussed and aware of what’s happening. Once your physical centre of gravity starts to shift out of your base, so too does your mental focus. And equally, if your mind is all over the place when you’re doing your Tai Chi form then, more than likely, your physical balance will suffer for it.

In an ‘internal’ martial art we try to harmonise what’s happening between the external and the internal parts of the body. That’s what I’m trying to do in each posture of the Tai Chi form – become more centred,both mentally and physically. I want to have a more natural body that is free from artificial posturing. Postures that look ‘held up’, as if from invisible wires from the ceiling, are not as useful for combat as natural, rooted, aware postures that can meet the demands of the moment.

(A quick tip for getting a more natural posture is to take up a posture from the Tai Chi form, put your arms in what you think is the correct position, then take a big breath in, all the way up to your shoulders then let it all out in one big gasp. Let your arms settle to where they need to be, rather than holding them up. That relaxed, sunk, posture you now have is what you should be looking for in Tai Chi Chuan.)

As it says in the Tai Chi Classics:

“The postures should be without defect,
without hollows or projections from the proper alignment;”

“Stand like a perfectly balanced scale and
move like a turning wheel.”

“The upright body must be stable and comfortable
to be able to sustain an attack from any of the eight directions.”
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13586
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby robert on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:09 am

GrahamB wrote:[snip]
I think it’s much more likely that the posture itself has special cultural significance (as say, part of a religious ritual, or maybe it relates to Chinese cosmology), so was included in the Tai Chi form sequence, or perhaps it’s something of a signature move that was handed down over the generations from an older martial art, and has lost its original meaning, but remained as a kind of nod of respect to the forefathers.
[snip]

Yang style is derived from Chen style. In Chen style most postures have multiple applications; there can often be qinna, throws, strikes, and/or kicks and mulitple applications in a posture. In laojia yilu fist under elbow follows a "push" and if you didn't get the push the beginning of the move is an attack to your opponent's throat. Here is a link to Wang Haijun showing it as a response to a leg grab.

It starts around 1:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynnjx8wY1n0

As far as I know this is not a signature move.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby BruceP on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:40 am

It isn't a technique - its an idea and an energetic
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby everything on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:49 am

neither. think more "dirty". think elbow, not fist.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:59 am

everything wrote:neither. think more "dirty". think elbow, not fist.


+1 ;)

Edit: I think Lee Yingarn showed some good apps for this move. It's on the tube.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9032
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby BruceP on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:29 pm

Apps...pffft

How about instead of 'punch' or 'elbow', it's a grip under elbow while lifting the opp's chin? Seems like a workable idea

It binds and stretches just like all the other postures, but in its own, unique way
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby everything on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:29 pm

That makes sense. This topic kinda gets me thinking (ranting). Throw away all the hype. 4 ounces. qi. pajamas. Taoism. Whole body. Hidden. Listening. Big. Small. Qigong. Graduate school. etc. What do we have that isn't mysterious, hidden, takes many years of study, etc.? A good dirty boxing system is a useful thing. Grab and elbow. Grab and palm strike. Good, useful stuff. Slowly refine your movements. Harmonize. Better stuff.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby Dmitri on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:33 pm

BruceP wrote:It isn't a technique - its an idea and an energetic

yep, just like the rest of the "form postures"
User avatar
Dmitri
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9742
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA (USA)

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:55 pm

robert wrote:
GrahamB wrote:[snip]
I think it’s much more likely that the posture itself has special cultural significance (as say, part of a religious ritual, or maybe it relates to Chinese cosmology), so was included in the Tai Chi form sequence, or perhaps it’s something of a signature move that was handed down over the generations from an older martial art, and has lost its original meaning, but remained as a kind of nod of respect to the forefathers.
[snip]

Yang style is derived from Chen style. In Chen style most postures have multiple applications; there can often be qinna, throws, strikes, and/or kicks and mulitple applications in a posture. In laojia yilu fist under elbow follows a "push" and if you didn't get the push the beginning of the move is an attack to your opponent's throat. Here is a link to Wang Haijun showing it as a response to a leg grab.

It starts around 1:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynnjx8wY1n0

As far as I know this is not a signature move.


I would love to like that video, because it's Wang Hai Jun, and he's awesome, but none of that would work like that against somebody doing a decent single leg, (with their head touching his ribs, not floating about a foot away where it's easy to hit). Sigh... I wish he wouldn't show anti-grappling things on people who don't know how to grapple... :(
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13586
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:56 pm

Dmitri wrote:
BruceP wrote:It isn't a technique - its an idea and an energetic

yep, just like the rest of the "form postures"


You guys are too high level for a simpleton like myself who just wants to know - 'what's that for?'
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13586
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:05 pm

Block an incoming punch with the elbow, whilst stepping in, and strike their torso from below your elbow (like a Bengquan). In Baguazhang a similar technique is called Yedi Canghua, which means hiding a flower under a leaf, but leaf has the same pronunciation as armpit. In that technique the elbow is more horizontal and the body more sideways. It can be a palm or a fist with the palm facing up. I prefer something in between, usually with a fist. Another target is the balls, if they are within reach. ;)
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Cuenca, Spain

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:25 pm

Old days poster Brandon had a very nice method for this (Yang shi). IIRC, it was similar to the main method that I was taught, too. The first under the elbow is applying chinna and screwing them up on their toes, the elbow then is free to strike their exposed and spread ribs.
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:34 pm

Think of the moves that preceded it and those that follow
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5782
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby BruceP on Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:51 pm

GrahamB wrote:
You guys are too high level for a simpleton like myself who just wants to know - 'what's that for?'


What's that? Sarcasm?

I'm probably the lowest level guy posting in this thread so far. I gave you an example of how it could be explored interactively.

Grab the other guy's belt buckle, shirt, jacket or the end of his tie and lift his chin. You can slam a lifting hand into him to put him on his back or progressively lift his balance to its tipping point as a control. It's just an idea that might resonate with your 'student'.

Yeah, like that'll work
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: Fist under elbow

Postby GrahamB on Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:57 pm

BruceP wrote:
GrahamB wrote:
You guys are too high level for a simpleton like myself who just wants to know - 'what's that for?'


What's that? Sarcasm?

I'm probably the lowest level guy posting in this thread so far. I gave you an example of how it could be explored interactively.



What's that? False modesty?


Grab the other guy's belt buckle, shirt, jacket or the end of his tie and lift his chin. You can slam a lifting hand into him to put him on his back or progressively lift his balance to its tipping point as a control. It's just an idea that might resonate with your 'student'.

Yeah, like that'll work


That's probably the most practical idea I've read here - thanks.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13586
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests