Fist under elbow

[Bao]

Personally, I think of it all as very simple, practical and hands on. It all comes down to physical body mechanics and the practical applications there of, something you should do practically and not "think".

[everything]

Yeah agree with you.

Back on the original topic, it's good to take a look at the move and not a static photo. In zmq37 at least, there is a sort of round sweeping/grabbing motion with the right arm and sort of a body turn - before the left arm and elbow come in, as opposed to Step Forward, Parry and Punch, which seems closer to Beng Quan where Fist is primary and after or simultaneous to the parry with a clear forward step. If the Elbow Fist posture were the same as the Step Punch, there would be no need for "Fist Under Elbow". Again, the conclusions should be clear and easy to follow, not fanciful or the same as the other move. When ZMQ does the move on film, there isn't actually a downward elbow or a sideward elbow: his movement is very abbreviated, but it's obviously different from a Beng Quan type move. The right arm motion is very clearly articulated. Hope that helps. It's ok if non TJQ people are confused, and this doesn't negate the arguments about abstract things. It's different but related topics.

[marvin8]

Here are a few interpretations.

Uploaded on Apr 4, 2010
Guo Shifu explains a couple of uses of Taiji's Under-elbow Hammer.

--------------------------
Guo Shilei (郭石磊) of Dongguan City, Guangdong, China, from the Ma Weiqi (馬維棋) style Baguazhang (八卦掌), Cheng style Baguazhang (程派八卦掌), and Yang style Taijiquan (Tai Chi) (杨派太極拳) lineages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmoShWa48A8

Published on Feb 20, 2015
Groin strikes, eye strikes and throat strikes are very common in Tai Chi. In this lesson Sigung Richard Clear takes a look at one of the groin strikes in the form Fist Under Elbow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpVjhnP ... e=youtu.be

Published on Aug 29, 2014
- Step-by-step instructions and usages
http://www.letstaichi.com/2014/08/28-...
- The original 128 postures Yang style Tai Chi devised by Yang Lu-Chan (楊露禪):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3oIOQ4aaI0

From http://www.taichiaustralia.com/articles ... _Kicks.htm:

Fist Under Elbow
(Zhou Di Chui)

http://www.taichiaustralia.com/articles/images/IMAG0241.jpg
A right fist under the left elbow usually means using left hand blocks a strike and punches an opponent with right fist. Actually there is a hidden footwork included in this movement which is used as a quick wrestling technique.
Target Area: lower leg

http://www.taichiaustralia.com/articles/images/IMAG0242.jpg
Application:
• Control one’s right arm
• Use right hand to push his chin
• Use left leg to hook his back of right knee

From http://www.gilmanstudio.com/OnLine_Class/Lesson23.htm:

This Lesson Contains:
Movement # 22 – Fist Under Elbow

This is one of the most complex and interesting movements in the form. I have broken it down into several little pieces so you can see some of the possibilities for application. Keep in mind that this, and all Tai Chi movements, is performed in a slow and continuous fashion.

My opponent attacks from my left side with her left arm. I join and neutralize this strike to the left, step behind her, and throw her over my leg. This movement has the feeling of spinning to the left. It clearly illustrates the principle of going with the energy of the opponent. I follow her striking energy to the left, add a bit of a pull which makes her want to retreat, and use her retreating energy to throw her over my leg. . . .



I continue to lead Anna to the left, and at the same time step behind her and grab her shirt (the fist part of Fist Under Elbow).

Shift the weight onto the left foot; roll up the right heel onto the toe for stability and mobility. Step forward with the right foot, touching down the heel. The right foot heel is on a line with the left foot toe and faces half way between north and west. Shift the weight onto the left foot until the knee just covers the toe.

As you step, the left arm continues moving to the left at upper chest level with the palm turning to face down (grabbing to pull). The right arm has circled up to end up in front of the right shoulder. When it has reached shoulder level, make a fist.

Focus on the left palm for pulling and the right fist for grabbing.


The opponent is thrown backward over my left leg.

The weight stays on the right foot and the left leg is stepped forward into Ding Bow On Heel. Be careful to keep the right knee over the toe and not let the knee collapse inward. The body and left foot face west.

The right fist is brought inward to end up facing down and inward in front of the center. The left arm circles down by the left side with the palm facing inward and the fingers facing forward. It then pokes forward to end up on the left side of the center of the chest. The feeling was as if you were drawing a pistol on the left side of your waist and shooting forward.

[cloudz]

About 'hold the ball'.
....
But i see that as generic positions that have no relevence to any particular activity; like fighting.
They are for the body and about the body, or perhaps that should be written as mind/body/spirit.
...
You could claim hold the ball is some kind of double ward off perhaps, and perhaps it can be.

I see postures like "holding the ball" or "tree embracing" posture as completely martial and completely useful. They should teach your body the angles where the body structure is as strongest. Those are the exact angles of the arms in coordination with the rest of the body you should use in a real fight, and especially important when you meet a very strong and solid opponent and defend from his strikes, throwing attempts etc. You can either use these angles very relaxed or you can lock the angles and use very strong whole body movement.

I think you're missing the point. They can be used towards martial purposes and of course they are useful. I use them very often.. I didn't say otherwise. The benefits you stated are not martial IN OF THEMSELVES. Then you went on to state how you used them for martial arts.

I'm not likening it to a push up in terms of the exercise. But if you think of a push up, you can use it to condition yourself for various things and you can list some benefits then go on to say how it can benefit your martial arts or whatever activity you do eg. play rugby. It doesn't make the push up a martial thing, in of itself. Fist under elbow is is - those *are* martial things. or "movement/shape with a martial purpose"

In your post we can replace martial arts with all sorts of activities that use bodies and angles, allignments and forces etc. and it would not make a difference. Hence why I'm saying HTB is generic posture/shape and FUE is martial specific posture/shape.

[LaoDan]

No neutrality, no TJQ.

BruceP,

I am also interested in hearing what you have to say about this since GrahamB does not seem to mind getting off topic.

I agree with you, but I have not heard many Taijiquan practitioners use the term “neutral” or state it as definitively as you do. To me, neutral should apply nearly everywhere, from the body as a whole, to individual parts of the body, to each point of contact with an opponent, to even mental aspects. The most familiar to practitioners is probably in reference to 中定 (zhong ding or central stability) when referring to the balance of the entire body, as Patrick points to.

I have written articles that implicate the importance of “neutrality” in Taijiquan, although I only occasionally actually use that term. See the following articles:

http://slantedflying.com/be-the-ball/

http://slantedflying.com/hitting-taijiquans-sweet-spot/2/

Note that my understanding of Taijiquan is influenced by ILiqChuan, and so my understanding of the Taijiquan literature could perhaps be somewhat skewed. I would love to see Taijiquan literature that specifically mentions “neutral” and it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this subject.

[everything]

Here are a few interpretations.

Thanks a lot. Really enjoyed the second one a lot. I really admire Guo Shifu's videos, but he seemed to be doing a very different kind of movement. Kind of roll back the other direction and upward punch. Maybe it's more from baguazhang (which is still awesome). It would be interesting to ask him about it.

[everything]

For the neutral topic, I'd suggest taijiquan literature mentions to maintain central equilibrium, but taijiquan theory probably doesn't go as far as yiquan or I Liq Chuan in explicitly trying to advocate a formless type of art. Taijiquan is a close-range listening/following, back and forth wave-like art emphasizing 8 main energies which are abstract but fairly easy to understand. Rollback, push and pull down are all quite natural. We can see people with no training do that when fighting in an untrained way. Little kids or people on Jerry Springer do that. Natural and abstract isn't quite the same thing as formless, though, at least imho.

[BruceP]

Patrick, and LaoDan

I've written a tonne on Neutrality Principle here at RSF over the years. Was searching for some good posts to paste in this thread because unlike GrahamB, I never get bored of my own voice saying the same old things

LaoDan, I like the articles. Especially the last point you make in the article, The Sweet Spot. It's very similar to the ideas I've applied to developing tjq practical application and the training methods I've developed to that end.

I pulled up some old posts that cover some of my approach to neutrality principle and posted them below:

Neutrality is the core principle in my approach to intuitive learning. No goals, preconceptions, expectations or biases. Just, is. It's tied to the idea that I don't know what I don't know and I'm not interested in what I do know. If someone is in a deferential state of mind, the learning can't go very far. So they can't be thinking that I know something they don't. In fact, as a facilitator, I go in with the understanding that they know a whole lot more than I do about their personal combat and it's my job to really listen and observe so I can have a clear sense of how to direct the exploration and subsequent training. That's why I'm so insistent on the idea that I can't really teach anyone anything - I can only bring out what's already there. There can't be the teacher/student thing going on in the training because it hacks off huge chunks of potential right from the start.


Further on that idea is the de-emphasizing 'not knowing'. In a student/teacher learning environment, the student hears the teacher repeat the same unspoken message; "You don't know how to do X correctly but I will teach you" The mind can become so blocked up and uncreative if one's perceived limitations are allowed to build false boundaries around their 'knowing' and 'not knowing'. And especially so when someone assuming the role of teacher reinforces that message with repeated correction. This kind of dualism subverts neutrality and darkens the places where what may be reside. It prunes vital branches from the tree of potentiality.

This carries into the tactical training as well. Every kick is a step - every punch is a throw. Every step is a kick - every throw is a punch. Tactical movement arises from the need to move tactically - not from an irrelevant set of laboratory conditions. So the way tactical movement is explored doesn't involve the drilling of locks, throws, punch/kick combos...techniques. No game plan, no thinking all deadly and full of 'intent' (I train to win). Just be (natural - responsive - spontaneous) and do (re-cognition) and learn ('mu').

Intuitive learning occurs when the individual is in a neutral state of being. That is, when there are no expectations and the individual is impartial to the material/method/exercise/drill. Understanding the process by which each individual learns intuitively can be quite challenging. The quality of that learning can be readily observed, though, in the instant evolution of the person's movement along specific lines, and in response to stimuli which are predetermined by the facilitator. The trick on the part of the facilitator is to get the trainee's inner being to the front of their learning and to have their cognitive/active self disengaged. I have no scientific proof of that notion. Just my biased, experiential understanding.

Here's a simple exercise I use to create a climate conducive to intuitive learning on a very basic, yet observable level;
Have the person stand naturally and relaxed. They extend their favored arm (right-handed/left-handed) out front, 90 degrees to their chest. With no pretext or explanation, twist it clockwise relative to yourself (inward relative to them) to elicit whatever response follows. Reset and twist it the other way. What happens when you ask them to yield to the twist? What happens when you ask them to resist? What happens when you switch to their other arm? Sometimes I start this exercise with them blindfolded and then not. Everyone learns differently and this gives a pretty good indication of the individual's capacity and affinities to intuitive learning as their movement evolves almost instantly with each variation on the exercise.

I'm big on exploring the natural protective responses common to us all and those which are peculiar to the individual, so my own approach is to create/develop re-cognition sequences tailored to the individual according to those responses. Just as with the twisting exercise in which movement evolves with each repetition, the natural responses evolve as they're explored in context. This evolution happens naturally and intuitively because there are no prescribed solutions to the points of failure.

Context, then, comes into the picture as being unique to the individual according to their perceived role in conflict. Prey or predator? Victim or righteous defender? Reactive or responsive? Like that. Context arises almost always from the perspective of the former rather than the latter if people are honest in determining their personal combat. That's why I always say, 'Don't train for success - train for failure' When context takes this incidental role it doesn't interfere with intuitive learning because it's a soft component rather than the purpose.


The exercises and drills I use are purposely open-ended so that the perceptual can be expressed physically. Whatever expression the drills elicit are unique to the individual as is the learning/new found knowing. Each new bit of insight gained from reviewing the physical expression adds to an ever-expanding network of movement options. That isn't to say that one consciously picks and chooses movement options because this is purely intuitive work after all. It can be observed though, that an individual will repeat certain patterns with good fighty effect without ever mindfully practicing them. I have absolutely no education in whatever fields of science apply to this kind of work, so I have no idea why it happens. I just know that it does.

The drills and exercises are the fuel. Without them, there is no fire. They're presented as lumps of clay and formatted to cultivate and/or preserve neutrality so that perception is expressed in its purest form. There is no good or bad, right or wrong.

A solo drill for practicing neutrality principle with intent:

Sitting at your computer, find a point, or thing, directly in front of you and just barely within your reach. With your full intent focused on reaching for that thing, don't.

You send out the command to reach, but you arrest the movement before it starts, then you hold it in stasis between start/stop. Notice how your lower abdomen and perineum feel solid and tingly?

Stand in front of a closed door and do the same thing with the intent to grasp the door knob and open the door. You'll have to find the posture and alignment in standing to recreate what you felt while you were seated. Not hard to do, and you'll feel more of a whole body connection from the floor up.

Corn-grinding is a really good exercise because it teaches the body to 'pull' the receding hand inward and backward with the opposite foot while the outward, advancing hand is 'pushed' outward and forward from its opposite foot. Push and pull are tricky so it's best to just practice the movement pattern until it's as natural and automatic as reaching for something. Then the arresting action of not grinding corn can really light up the 6 Harmonies.

[Wuyizidi]

Like Grasp the Sparrow's Tail or Repulse Monkey, it's another case of lost in translation.

Notice there are 4 characters in the name (read right to left):
Zhou 肘: elbow
Di 底: bottom
Kan 看: watch, guard**
Chui 捶: fist

**Most of time in Chinese the word 看 is pronounced with 4th tone, meaning to watch. In other context it is pronounced with first (flat) tone, meaning to guard against, watch out for. For example Kan Jia Guo - guard family dog.

This is a classic case in Chinese of if you pronounce the word incorrectly, you can get the meaning wrong. Someone who doesn't know Taiji could easily assume it's the usual 4th tone, and think it means to "watch the fist that is under the elbow". However, when pronounced correctly, we immediately know the fist under the elbow is the "guarding fist" - the one doing the defending, while the arm above it is the one doing offense.

So how can the fist be defensive? The posture ends with that hand enclosed like a fist. In application what happens is that is the hand (whichever side is convenient) that does a liu motion (unrolling the sleeve - touch the opponent forearm, then naturally slide down the arm and grab the wrist area for control). With that arm down, now there's an opening on that side for our other hand to travel up alone the captured arm to attack. That could be an upward punch, a swipe at back/side of head, a throw, whatever.

So the basic idea is at the beginning of the posture we're in defense mode, waiting for an attack from one of opponent's hand/arm, then we bring that one down with one "guarding the door" hand, ending in enclosed grab, and simultaneously attack upward with other hand. It's a very common application idea in all martial art styles. So a more accurate translation would be something "under elbow guarding first".

[Jin Gang Dao Dui]

I relate to how it is done in Chen style laojia and xinjia yilu

Basically use first your left and then your right palm to remove your opponent's guard and/or block his vision and get in a left downward elbow
If you can get a hold of something like his shirt, hair, beard... it"'s easier to pull him into your downward elbow.
this is pretty easy to pull off and I believe is pretty common in Thai boxing.

another one that needs a bit more of practice on how to set it up to pull off is this:

I explain it here from both persons standing like southpaw i.e. right foot forward.

When you feint an attack and the opponent covers by holding up/pushing out an open hand with the palm facing towards you, you grab the fingers of his right hand with your right open hand (and if needed you hook your left hand behind his wrist or in the crease of his elbow) and you bend his fingers backwards and downwards. he will drop to a knee so his head will be in the perfect place to smash with a downward elbow with the left arm. He will also be in the perfect place to knee him anywhere you prefer.
After you hit him over the head with your elbow and you start the transition to the next move of the form into dao juan hong, you will be pulling him by his locked fingers/wrist face first into the ground to your right side.
This, from the setup all the way to getting the hurt opponent out of the way in case there are more attackers, is an exact copy of how I learned to do the move in the form. Try it and you'll see you'll end up in exactly the same posture as in laojia yilu and it a is very comfortable position to elbow somebody into oblivion

For obvious reasons it doesn't work when wearing boxing gloves, however it does work wearing open mma gloves or when you spar bare knuckle.

[everything]

Like Grasp the Sparrow's Tail or Repulse Monkey, it's another case of lost in translation.

Notice there are 4 characters in the name (read right to left):
Zhou 肘: elbow
Di 底: bottom
Kan 看: watch, guard**
Chui 捶: fist

**Most of time in Chinese the word 看 is pronounced with 4th tone, meaning to watch. In other context it is pronounced with first (flat) tone, meaning to guard against, watch out for. For example Kan Jia Guo - guard family dog.

This is a classic case in Chinese of if you pronounce the word incorrectly, you can get the meaning wrong. Someone who doesn't know Taiji could easily assume it's the usual 4th tone, and think it means to "watch the fist that is under the elbow". However, when pronounced correctly, we immediately know the fist under the elbow is the "guarding fist" - the one doing the defending, while the arm above it is the one doing offense.

So how can the fist be defensive? The posture ends with that hand enclosed like a fist. In application what happens is that is the hand (whichever side is convenient) that does a liu motion (unrolling the sleeve - touch the opponent forearm, then naturally slide down the arm and grab the wrist area for control). With that arm down, now there's an opening on that side for our other hand to travel up alone the captured arm to attack. That could be an upward punch, a swipe at back/side of head, a throw, whatever.

So the basic idea is at the beginning of the posture we're in defense mode, waiting for an attack from one of opponent's hand/arm, then we bring that one down with one "guarding the door" hand, ending in enclosed grab, and simultaneously attack upward with other hand. It's a very common application idea in all martial art styles. So a more accurate translation would be something "under elbow guarding first".

This is a fascinating explanation. Thanks for the elaboration.

[everything]

I relate to how it is done in Chen style laojia and xinjia yilu

Basically use first your left and then your right palm to remove your opponent's guard and/or block his vision and get in a left downward elbow
If you can get a hold of something like his shirt, hair, beard... it"'s easier to pull him into your downward elbow.
this is pretty easy to pull off and I believe is pretty common in Thai boxing.

This is fascinating as well. Kind of like gif #3 from here: http://www.muaythaischolar.com/muay-tha ... -vs-boxer/
except in that image, the knee is much more prominent than the elbow technique (vertical forearm, elbow strike is forward after grabbing the neck). Ignoring the knee, his arm motions look much more similar to the tajiquan form movements AFAIK. One arm does a round grabbing motion, the other arm has a vertical forearm moving in toward the fist.

[Niall Keane]

[wayne hansen]

The Wu styleFUE is so different to the yang they really can't be compared
The applications here also differ from how it is practiced in the CTH form

[Patrick]

Patrick, and LaoDan

I've written a tonne on Neutrality Principle here at RSF over the years. Was searching for some good posts to paste in this thread because unlike GrahamB, I never get bored of my own voice saying the same old things

LaoDan, I like the articles. Especially the last point you make in the article, The Sweet Spot. It's very similar to the ideas I've applied to developing tjq practical application and the training methods I've developed to that end.

I pulled up some old posts that cover some of my approach to neutrality principle and posted them below:

Neutrality is the core principle in my approach to intuitive learning. No goals, preconceptions, expectations or biases. Just, is. It's tied to the idea that I don't know what I don't know and I'm not interested in what I do know. If someone is in a deferential state of mind, the learning can't go very far. So they can't be thinking that I know something they don't. In fact, as a facilitator, I go in with the understanding that they know a whole lot more than I do about their personal combat and it's my job to really listen and observe so I can have a clear sense of how to direct the exploration and subsequent training. That's why I'm so insistent on the idea that I can't really teach anyone anything - I can only bring out what's already there. There can't be the teacher/student thing going on in the training because it hacks off huge chunks of potential right from the start.


Further on that idea is the de-emphasizing 'not knowing'. In a student/teacher learning environment, the student hears the teacher repeat the same unspoken message; "You don't know how to do X correctly but I will teach you" The mind can become so blocked up and uncreative if one's perceived limitations are allowed to build false boundaries around their 'knowing' and 'not knowing'. And especially so when someone assuming the role of teacher reinforces that message with repeated correction. This kind of dualism subverts neutrality and darkens the places where what may be reside. It prunes vital branches from the tree of potentiality.

This carries into the tactical training as well. Every kick is a step - every punch is a throw. Every step is a kick - every throw is a punch. Tactical movement arises from the need to move tactically - not from an irrelevant set of laboratory conditions. So the way tactical movement is explored doesn't involve the drilling of locks, throws, punch/kick combos...techniques. No game plan, no thinking all deadly and full of 'intent' (I train to win). Just be (natural - responsive - spontaneous) and do (re-cognition) and learn ('mu').

Intuitive learning occurs when the individual is in a neutral state of being. That is, when there are no expectations and the individual is impartial to the material/method/exercise/drill. Understanding the process by which each individual learns intuitively can be quite challenging. The quality of that learning can be readily observed, though, in the instant evolution of the person's movement along specific lines, and in response to stimuli which are predetermined by the facilitator. The trick on the part of the facilitator is to get the trainee's inner being to the front of their learning and to have their cognitive/active self disengaged. I have no scientific proof of that notion. Just my biased, experiential understanding.

Here's a simple exercise I use to create a climate conducive to intuitive learning on a very basic, yet observable level;
Have the person stand naturally and relaxed. They extend their favored arm (right-handed/left-handed) out front, 90 degrees to their chest. With no pretext or explanation, twist it clockwise relative to yourself (inward relative to them) to elicit whatever response follows. Reset and twist it the other way. What happens when you ask them to yield to the twist? What happens when you ask them to resist? What happens when you switch to their other arm? Sometimes I start this exercise with them blindfolded and then not. Everyone learns differently and this gives a pretty good indication of the individual's capacity and affinities to intuitive learning as their movement evolves almost instantly with each variation on the exercise.

I'm big on exploring the natural protective responses common to us all and those which are peculiar to the individual, so my own approach is to create/develop re-cognition sequences tailored to the individual according to those responses. Just as with the twisting exercise in which movement evolves with each repetition, the natural responses evolve as they're explored in context. This evolution happens naturally and intuitively because there are no prescribed solutions to the points of failure.

Context, then, comes into the picture as being unique to the individual according to their perceived role in conflict. Prey or predator? Victim or righteous defender? Reactive or responsive? Like that. Context arises almost always from the perspective of the former rather than the latter if people are honest in determining their personal combat. That's why I always say, 'Don't train for success - train for failure' When context takes this incidental role it doesn't interfere with intuitive learning because it's a soft component rather than the purpose.


The exercises and drills I use are purposely open-ended so that the perceptual can be expressed physically. Whatever expression the drills elicit are unique to the individual as is the learning/new found knowing. Each new bit of insight gained from reviewing the physical expression adds to an ever-expanding network of movement options. That isn't to say that one consciously picks and chooses movement options because this is purely intuitive work after all. It can be observed though, that an individual will repeat certain patterns with good fighty effect without ever mindfully practicing them. I have absolutely no education in whatever fields of science apply to this kind of work, so I have no idea why it happens. I just know that it does.

The drills and exercises are the fuel. Without them, there is no fire. They're presented as lumps of clay and formatted to cultivate and/or preserve neutrality so that perception is expressed in its purest form. There is no good or bad, right or wrong.

A solo drill for practicing neutrality principle with intent:

Sitting at your computer, find a point, or thing, directly in front of you and just barely within your reach. With your full intent focused on reaching for that thing, don't.

You send out the command to reach, but you arrest the movement before it starts, then you hold it in stasis between start/stop. Notice how your lower abdomen and perineum feel solid and tingly?

Stand in front of a closed door and do the same thing with the intent to grasp the door knob and open the door. You'll have to find the posture and alignment in standing to recreate what you felt while you were seated. Not hard to do, and you'll feel more of a whole body connection from the floor up.

Corn-grinding is a really good exercise because it teaches the body to 'pull' the receding hand inward and backward with the opposite foot while the outward, advancing hand is 'pushed' outward and forward from its opposite foot. Push and pull are tricky so it's best to just practice the movement pattern until it's as natural and automatic as reaching for something. Then the arresting action of not grinding corn can really light up the 6 Harmonies.

Thank you very much, very interesting! Especially the part about the intention sounds very much like Yi Quan.