Fist under elbow

[BruceP]

I wouldn't put too much stock in it. I just thought it up a few hours ago. Practical is all I got, though, so...

"What's that for?" is mistaking the technique for the goal. It's a wild goose chase. TJQ can't be trained that way because it precludes neutrality. No neutrality, no TJQ.

[windwalker]

I wouldn't put too much stock in it. I just thought it up a few hours ago. Practical is all I got, though, so...

"What's that for?" is mistaking the technique for the goal. It's a wild goose chase. TJQ can't be trained that way because it precludes neutrality. No neutrality, no TJQ.

+1

[everything]

[Steve James]

Afa the "classical" application, I think this is the idea that one will find in illustrations from old texts. Just skip to the application, but the idea is pretty traditional --ime.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA3RR3gwREQ

However, there is no reason why a closed fist can't be a grab and not a punch. There's also no reason that the hand used to lift can't be used as an attack. There's no reason that both hands can't be closed. But, there has to be a clear intent, which is up to you and the situation.

[Dmitri]

^^ The "energy" of that move is a bit different from this (a "downward elbow"), at least on how I learned out/how it's done in the Yang form, FWIW

[MaartenSFS]

I thought downward elbow strikes were outlawed in MMA??

I've seen variations on this technique, including a downward elbow, but the people doing it that way weren't good at fighting...

I prefer Jinggang Daodui for people shooting in, especially for a leg grab.. The beginning of Yanshou Hongchui has a downward punch to the head in one variation, which is nice too.

[Steve James]

^^ The "energy" of that move is a bit different from this (a "downward elbow"), at least on how I learned out/how it's done in the Yang form, FWIW

Agreed that the energy is different. I've never seen "FUE" used as a downward elbow in Yang style. YCF didn't illustrate it that way, and that's in his own applications book. See Photo No. 12 (Chou Te Chui) on page 13 in "Practical Use of Tai Chi Chuan: Its Applications and Variations." I can't find the photo online.

Btw, I'm not making any claims about what people teach or whether anything works or not.

[Steve James]

This "video" has several applications for elbow, and a couple even for FUE, too. We've seen it before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3d1NtQXeDQ

[wayne hansen]

The last application the guy in black does is pretty close to the mark
The fact that the weight never transfers to the left foot shows the in close aspect of the applications
The retreat into repulse monkey verifies it
Nothing in the second clip of the San shou drawings is anything like FUE even though elbow is one of the 4 energies used in San shou
The forward punches the guy in black does in the first clip are more fair lady than fist

[Subitai]

Different families sure are interesting.

In Sun Taiji...

Starting from single whip (leaning left) = If the left arm is connecting with the opponents left arm for example:

- Change the inflection of left arm to raise up
- with flow step foot work ...short right punch is the "fist under elbow"
- pretty standard.
===========================================

In our Yang variant, ala Gu Style... it's very different

Starting from single whip = If the left arm is connecting with the opponents left arm for example:

- Left hand plucks to control left wrist for example and make the arm "long" or extended or even empty of strength.
- Right forearm comes down to divide or split on elbow
- Right forearm then continues to roll the bones and keep contact over and on top of the opponents arm (typically downward direction)
- as you shift your weight back into left 7 stars stance...the left hand strikes over the right fist.
- the right fist is in reserve for another strike.

In short: pluck, divide ...jab over fist

[GrahamB]

In our Yang variant, ala Gu Style... it's very different

Starting from single whip = If the left arm is connecting with the opponents left arm for example:

- Left hand plucks to control left wrist for example and make the arm "long" or extended or even empty of strength.
- Right forearm comes down to divide or split on elbow
- Right forearm then continues to roll the bones and keep contact over and on top of the opponents arm (typically downward direction)
- as you shift your weight back into left 7 stars stance...the left hand strikes over the right fist.
- the right fist is in reserve for another strike.

In short: pluck, divide ...jab over fist

Hi,

I think I've mentioned before, but we do the same variant of Yang style, which you call "Gu". Just had a look at your variant and I recognise it, although (as always) we do ours slightly differently.

You: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqLnGpLDngo
FUE at 0.48-ish

Your application described above for FUE in your post is very similar to our application - the "right fist is in reserve for another strike." bit is the hidden application I talk about in my blog post. Our form is slightly different as we step forward into left 7 stars, not back, and we would typically strike and kick at the same time there with left palm and left foot 'every step is a kick'.

Just before FUE we also have another strike, which I think got added in from Choy Lee Fut because it looks just like a Sao Choy 'sweeping fist' and Gu Ru Zhang taught Choy Lee Fut in his eclectic mix of arts he developed in his Hong Kong school by training with as many masters as he could - in this case Tam Sam of Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut. He trained with Sun Lu Tang too, and I notice you teach the Sun style too. (In our lineage the Northern Shaolin and Choy Lee Fut made it across the water to the UK along with the Yang Tai Chi, but the Sun Tai Chi was known but not taught to students, so we don't have that - I guess different masters have different preferences or priorities, and there's only so much time...) The sequence I'm talking about starts at 1.50 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=satexNS15EQ

(That's a short-form made from our version of the long-form Gu variant of Yang)

[wayne hansen]

Does the gu style have any connection to earl montigue

[GrahamB]

Does the gu style have any connection to earl montigue

No it bloody does not!

[GrahamB]

If you're interested, Gu wrote a book about his style. I think he took Yang style movements from Yang Chien Hou style and had input from Sun Lu Tang:

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-ruzhang/

[Subitai]

Cheers GrahamB ,
Thanks for the history and connection... I guess that kinda makes us distant relatives eh? Nice.

It's interesting about the differences. Of course when you leave people to their own devices...variations are gonna happen.

LOL btw, on that Sao Choy prior to your FUE in that video! Not knocking it...since I also do Hung Style.

Few years ago I met up with another guy named Seth Davis on this board (New Jersey) Nice guy, I consider him family. He's also Gu Ru Zhang related, but his master is a Japanese guy (don't have it memorized right now). He told me about Sifu Raymond Rand and to find his book if I ever wanted to look and see other versions. Wait a minute...In your video ...let me think. I'm running to the book shelf.

Hey matching up YOU in the video with the guy on the cover in white t-shirt...that's you isn't it? Only younger?

If it is, allow me to shameless plug another Gu family members book, it's titled: "Tai Chi Chuan" A Comprehensive Training Manual". Yes, looking in this book...I can see some CLF skills esque? Haha..I wondered about that.

Since I'm plugging books for anyone else interested: "Tai Chi Chuan Theory and Practice" by
Paul F. N. Tam * It's for sale on Amazon.
- I especially like this 2002 version because my name is in it under the lineage.

=================================================================

off topic... A while back I saw a YT vid: Taijiquan (SUN and YANG) in Hong Kong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-lGaeKkuU

The guy in the video looks like he just learned Sun...I assume that by the way he's missing some basics.

Anyway at about 1:10 the Guy and a female sifu start doing Yang in Hong Kong.... Man, she totally looks like a person that does Bak Siu Lum and then "oh by the way"...She also does Gu version of Yang Taiji for health on the side. Meh... The way her hips, her foot work moves...locked out knees and other things...ughh I'm glad we don't do it like that.

Anyway, my question for you is: at about 2:00 right after she does brush knee right palm...see how she raises her right leg before strum the lute? Did I see you do something similar to that in your video? I.e. raise leg similar to that.

I ask because we don't do it like that, for us thankfully it's knee strike. Curious