Worth it to Learn..

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby shoebox55 on Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:49 am

MaartenSFS wrote:
No, I don't. Not any good ones. I was way too busy training, usually outside and didn't have any to film, so it wasn't convenient.. :(


Do you still train with your master? Are there any other videos of your master sparring?
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:29 am

marvin8 wrote:why practice moves that only work if someone is not moving around?

If your opponent moves around, he is using the "fire" strategy. You should use the "water" strategy, let your opponent comes toward you, borrow his force, and counter him. In CMA, there are 5 major strategies "metal", "wood", "water", "fire", "earth". How you may fight depends on which strategy that your opponent may use to against you.

For example, if your opponent is a defensive and counter fighter and wait for you to come in by using the "water" strategy, you then should use "earth" strategy by moving in inch by inch until you can establish your leg bridge and arm bridge. This way since you are moving in slow (inch and inch), it will be difficult for him to borrow your force.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:00 pm

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:why practice moves that only work if someone is not moving around?

If your opponent moves around, he is using the "fire" strategy. You should use the "water" strategy, let your opponent comes toward you, borrow his force, and counter him. In CMA, there are 5 major strategies "metal", "wood", "water", "fire", "earth". How you may fight depends on which strategy that your opponent may use to against you.

For example, if your opponent is a defensive and counter fighter and wait for you to come in by using the "water" strategy, you then should use "earth" strategy by moving in inch by inch until you can establish your leg bridge and arm bridge. This way since you are moving in slow (inch and inch), it will be difficult for him to borrow your force.

In todays martial art/sport community, imagine telleng an aspiring pugilist about the importance of the strategies of the five elements, four gates/doors and so on to become a skilled fighter or just to learn self defence, i think they would soon hurry away to the mma gym next door.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:20 pm

Trick wrote:In todays martial art/sport community, imagine telleng an aspiring pugilist about the importance of the strategies of the five elements, four gates/doors and so on to become a skilled fighter or just to learn self defence, i think they would soon hurry away to the mma gym next door.

Too much theory and not enough theory are 2 extremes. I wasn't interested in theory when I was young. One day I competed in a Karate tournament. My opponent stayed in a low stance with strong defense, and moved in inch by inch. I didn't see any opening to attack so I moved back, soon I had moved outside of the ring boundary. After I had moved out of the ring boundary twice, I lose that fight. I then asked my teacher and got involved with the 5 elements theory. When my opponent used the "earth" strategy, I should used the "wood" strategy. My arms and legs should function as the tree branches and attack my opponent from long range. Theory (or strategy) can offer idea how to deal with any particular situation by using our ancestor's experience/knowledge.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:09 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:In todays martial art/sport community, imagine telleng an aspiring pugilist about the importance of the strategies of the five elements, four gates/doors and so on to become a skilled fighter or just to learn self defence, i think they would soon hurry away to the mma gym next door.

Too much theory and not enough theory are 2 extremes. I wasn't interested in theory when I was young. One day I competed in a Karate tournament. My opponent stayed in a low stance with strong defense, and moved in inch by inch. I didn't see any opening to attack so I moved back, soon I had moved outside of the ring boundary. After I had moved out of the ring boundary twice, I lose that fight. I then asked my teacher and got involved with the 5 elements theory. When my opponent used the "earth" strategy, I should used the "wood" strategy. My arms and legs should function as the tree branches and attack my opponent from long range. Theory (or strategy) can offer idea how to deal with any particular situation by using our ancestor's experience/knowledge.

Had pretty much the same experience at my first Karate tournament. I don't know about now but back then it was practice more,spar more, learn by experience kind of way. Some learned quick other not so quick, so here could be in place with verbal strategy teaching, maybe then every one would have learned quick. In the qoute of mine i wanted to poin out the language of for example "Wood beats Earth" and so on might not be so appealing for todays Girls and Boys that want to learn to Box or Wrestle. I have never been in a mma gym, but i can imagine they also teach combat strategies in those gym's, but i think they use a more "modern" language to teach.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Bao on Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:24 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:why practice moves that only work if someone is not moving around?

If your opponent moves around, he is using the "fire" strategy. You should use the "water" strategy, let your opponent comes toward you, borrow his force, and counter him. In CMA, there are 5 major strategies "metal", "wood", "water", "fire", "earth". How you may fight depends on which strategy that your opponent may use to against you.

For example, if your opponent is a defensive and counter fighter and wait for you to come in by using the "water" strategy, you then should use "earth" strategy by moving in inch by inch until you can establish your leg bridge and arm bridge. This way since you are moving in slow (inch and inch), it will be difficult for him to borrow your force.


It's not about something working or not, it's like John says, it's about when and how. Or to do what strategy to apply in what circumstance. ... To use J.W.'s fine terminology, most sport fighting strategy is "fire" strategy. But fire needs to build up. You can put out fire by pouring water on it. If you don't let the fire start, you can put out the sparkles with a less amount of water. This is not theory. In a real fight, it's better to have the mind-set to put out the fire as soon as possible. It's not advisable to take any chances, because you don't know how the fire will spread.

But sure, there are other ways, you can also put out fire with earth. And you can overcome a little fire by pouring a vast more fire on him.A couple of examples... If you look at the early UFC, the Gracies just went in as soon as the fight started with a shoot. They did it again, and again, and again, taking down fighter after fighter. Or look at Mike Tyson, his fire strategy is to go in with as much punches as possible as soon as possible, not letting his opponent having an opportunity to breath or think, eating his way in with punches. There are plenty of other real life examples of how to make the different strategies work.

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:In todays martial art/sport community, imagine telleng an aspiring pugilist about the importance of the strategies of the five elements, four gates/doors and so on to become a skilled fighter or just to learn self defence, i think they would soon hurry away to the mma gym next door.


Too much theory and not enough theory are 2 extremes. I wasn't interested in theory when I was young. One day I competed in a Karate tournament. My opponent stayed in a low stance with strong defense, and moved in inch by inch. I didn't see any opening to attack so I moved back, soon I had moved outside of the ring boundary. After I had moved out of the ring boundary twice, I lose that fight. I then asked my teacher and got involved with the 5 elements theory. When my opponent used the "earth" strategy, I should used the "wood" strategy. My arms and legs should function as the tree branches and attack my opponent from long range. Theory (or strategy) can offer idea how to deal with any particular situation by using our ancestor's experience/knowledge.


+1
Very well explained. 8-)
IMHO, strategy is far from being only theory. Theory is not only thinking. Theory is an explanation model of something practical. Theory is explanation on how to do something, like how to act, when to act etc.

If someone doesn't understand how to apply theory practically, IMO, the fault might be within him, maybe he doesn't have enough experience to understand it in a practical manner. But sure, we can have different ways of explaining things and put more emphasise on different things. Just because we have different kinds of experience, IMHO, it's better to listen to someone else and try to understand their view as well as to why they say something, than to disregard or neglect him or her. A person might just try to communicate their own experience, to share, discuss and to learn more from others. :P

... sometimes I do mistakes like this ... :-\ ... But I like to listen to what other people has to say, share my own humble words, trying to get better to put my thoughts into words... although I have a very little experience in many different things compared to some people here.... I have no idea what I am trying to say now, I'm just rambling I guess. F-ck it, must go back and work. Later maybe... :P
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:03 am

Here is what I posted:
marvin8 wrote:
Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Bao, your approach of step in make contact with legs i would never try against someone who are out to hurt me, but in a push hand exchange it works.


The question is about how the other person move. What did you mean, how do that person move and how do that person try to hurt me? I would say that in a competition environment or against a bouncer, it's very hard and sometime impossible. If you are fixated with the common sparring style kind of sparring where to people bounce around, no, this won't work. Just having that mind-set will probably mean that your timing will be off for this kind of move. This move is not something you chase, but your timing must be good. . . . This is a strategy for real fighting, not for bouncing around point sparring or under a competition rule set. But yes, you can use it for wrestling or PH as well. And yes, it's a strategy that works well if "someone is out to hurt you". But again, and as always, it depends on the situation and the movability of your opponent and on the environment as well. . . . But again, if someone is already jumping around free and try to keep distance, no a lot of these methods won't work.

Not sure if I am understanding correctly. However, why practice moves that only work if someone is not moving around? If you watch real fights. people move. As far as "Chinese" way or "IMA" strategy, modern fighting has a wide range of strategies including the "Chinese" or "IMA" way, depending on the opponent's strength(s) and weakness(s).

Here is an analysis of an upcoming fight Cormier vs Jackson. I do not see a lot of "bouncing" or "jumping." I see forward pressure, adhere, positioning, etc.

Published on Apr 3, 2017
In the first episode of Inside The Octagon for UFC 210, John Gooden and Dan Hardy analyze the light heavyweight rematch between champion Daniel Cormier and Anthony "Rumble" Johnson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hij844Zualw

I don't know if my comment was taken out of context (not important).

@ Bao, I was commenting on your reply to Trick. Here is a section again:
Bao wrote:This is a strategy for real fighting, not for bouncing around point sparring or under a competition rule set.. . . But again, and as always, it depends on the situation and the movability of your opponent and on the environment as well.

In "real fighting," do opponents move around? If the technique depends on the opponent not moving too much, it may be one of those low percentage techniques that are harder to pull off and may be even dangerous, as Trick alluded to.

Bao wrote:Chinese traditional fighting strategy is different from the common western point-sparring or bouncing boxing type of jump-in-jump-out kind of fighting. Chinese traditional strategy is more about moving in, taking contact and stay with contact. It's much more practical and useful for real life fighting/ real combat strategy. But the modern jumping around, point sparring competition type of fighting seem to be etched strongly into everyone's mind.

In the analysis video I posted, do you believe Daniel Cormier is "bouncing" or "jumping?" Or would you say Cormier is displaying more of the "Chinese traditional strategy . . . moving in, taking contact and stay with contact?"

BTW, your explanations and views of what an IMA fighter should look like are appreciated.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Bao on Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:24 am

Thanks Marvin! ... I am sure I contradict myself or express myself somewhat badly. Extremely busy these days. But I like discussing these things and here everyone's views. I'll try to get back to all of this later.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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