Worth it to Learn..

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby windwalker on Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:54 am

taiwandeutscher wrote:
In any conflict, private or public, if you use MA skills, you can be sued and tried for "using weaponry on body", rather expensive (1,5 - 2 mil for a few strikes or kicks).


off topic: how do they determined if MA skills were used or not?
Just wondered.

In CA, the law deals with the use of force

"California self-defense laws provide that you can't be found guilty of a violent crime that you committed in order to protect yourself, as long as your conduct was reasonable under the circumstances. 1

For purposes of the self-defense legal defense, “reasonable under the circumstances” means that you need to have:

Reasonably believed that you were in imminent danger of being killed, injured, or touched unlawfully,
Reasonably believed that you needed to use force to prevent that from happening, and
Used no more force than was necessary to prevent that from happening."
http://www.shouselaw.com/self-defense.html
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby marvin8 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:19 am

taiwandeutscher wrote:
Using MA in any public circumstances has become illegal in Taiwan, so Master J. Wang, you better do your fighting in the US of A, lol! . . .

In any conflict, private or public, if you use MA skills, you can be sued and tried for "using weaponry on body", rather expensive (1,5 - 2 mil for a few strikes or kicks).

Apparently, this can happen both criminally and civilly in the U.S., as well. This happened in johnwang's state, too. :( :)

From http://www.mmamania.com/2015/11/3/96660 ... ists-texas:
by Adrian MacNair Nov 3, 2015, 8:05pm EST wrote:
You've probably heard the joke in a B-movie somewhere: "I know karate! My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"

But, for at least one mixed martial arts (MMA) fighter, that statement is actually true. Texas authorities believed that the hands of Jamal Parks were so dangerous because of his involvement in MMA that they charged him with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon after Nov. 2013 incident in which he beat up friend Juan Angel so bad that he went to the hospital.

Check out the details:
Testimony on Monday revealed the fight started at Parks' apartment, where the two were hanging out. At one point, Parks threw Angel through a dry wall. The deadly weapon in this case, according to Assistant District Attorney Bill Vassar, was the suspect's hands. He also had a machete in a case, but did not use it to harm Angel.

A machete? Who carries around a machete in a briefcase?

Perhaps more alarming, Parks also beat up a female police officer when she arrived on the scene, testifying in court that she was fighting for her life.

Judge Wayne Salvant said he believed Parks was on drugs during the assaults, sentencing him to six years in prison with credit for time served.

As the sentencing took place in Fort Wayne, a reporter asked local MMA fighter and former UFC combatant Travis Lutter what he thought of designating somebody's hands as deadly weapons.

His response:
"How do you make the distinction? How effective I am? How good I am at my job?"

Well, at least we know Michael Bisping is safe from such future prosecution.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby shoebox55 on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:59 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:
In conclusion I think that it's very important to learn from a master that can fight and either regularly spars with you or has you spar with his other students regularly.
8-)


Please do you have any videos of your master sparring with you?
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:57 pm

You should learn your teacher's "strategy". The best strategy that I have learned from my teacher was to "touch my leading leg against my opponent's leading leg when I move in".

For some unknown reason, the "strategy" is not popular in RSF discussion.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:39 pm

Actually, I did learn that from my master. Kick their leading leg with your leading leg - a Guadifeng. Very painful. For them.. 8-)
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:42 pm

shoebox55 wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:
In conclusion I think that it's very important to learn from a master that can fight and either regularly spars with you or has you spar with his other students regularly.
8-)


Please do you have any videos of your master sparring with you?

No, I don't. Not any good ones. I was way too busy training, usually outside and didn't have any to film, so it wasn't convenient.. :(
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Bao on Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:01 pm

johnwang wrote:The best strategy that I have learned from my teacher was to "touch my leading leg against my opponent's leading leg when I move in".

For some unknown reason, the "strategy" is not popular in RSF discussion.


MaartenSFS wrote:Actually, I did learn that from my master. Kick their leading leg with your leading leg - a Guadifeng. Very painful. For them.. 8-)


What I think that Wang Laoshi means is not kicking, but to step in and make contact, touch leading leg against leading leg. You can block your opponent's movement (or ability to move), feel and follow his attempt to move.

One of my teacher tried to teach tai chi people the same strategy. Very few understood or was interested. Chinese traditional fighting strategy is different from the common western point-sparring or bouncing boxing type of jump-in-jump-out kind of fighting. Chinese traditional strategy is more about moving in, taking contact and stay with contact. It's much more practical and useful for real life fighting/ real combat strategy. But the modern jumping around, point sparring competition type of fighting seem to be etched strongly into everyone's mind.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:16 am

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:The best strategy that I have learned from my teacher was to "touch my leading leg against my opponent's leading leg when I move in".

For some unknown reason, the "strategy" is not popular in RSF discussion.


MaartenSFS wrote:Actually, I did learn that from my master. Kick their leading leg with your leading leg - a Guadifeng. Very painful. For them.. 8-)


What I think that Wang Laoshi means is not kicking, but to step in and make contact, touch leading leg against leading leg. You can block your opponent's movement (or ability to move), feel and follow his attempt to move.

One of my teacher tried to teach tai chi people the same strategy. Very few understood or was interested. Chinese traditional fighting strategy is different from the common western point-sparring or bouncing boxing type of jump-in-jump-out kind of fighting. Chinese traditional strategy is more about moving in, taking contact and stay with contact. It's much more practical and useful for real life fighting/ real combat strategy. But the modern jumping around, point sparring competition type of fighting seem to be etched strongly into everyone's mind.

Bao, your approach of step in make contact with legs i would never try against someone who are out to hurt me, but in a push hand exchange it works. The kick opponent front leg(shin) is a good option if have to fight for real, made as a stop kick or for distraction, if wearing hard sole shoes the greater the distraction
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:49 am

A well timed foot sweep with the lead leg(foot) against opponent lead leg(foot/ankle) while opponent approach/step in is a good technique, crucial here is "well timed". This we often practiced back during my Karate days, it worked well in sparring and competition.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Bao on Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:35 am

Trick wrote:Bao, your approach of step in make contact with legs i would never try against someone who are out to hurt me, but in a push hand exchange it works.


The question is about how the other person move. What did you mean, how do that person move and how do that person try to hurt me? I would say that in a competition environment or against a bouncer, it's very hard and sometime impossible. If you are fixated with the common sparring style kind of sparring where to people bounce around, no, this won't work. Just having that mind-set will probably mean that your timing will be off for this kind of move. This move is not something you chase, but your timing must be good. It works best if you can move in as soon as you see your opponent raising up his fist into a guard, or move in as soon as you have even a slight idea that someone wants to hurt you. You should go in, make contact preferably with both arms and preferably with the leg if you can. IThen you don't let go. From an IMA perspective, can either follow his reaction or use the moment of contact to provoke a reaction you can follow. Or you can go against the weakness, filling in the gaps of his structure. This is a strategy for real fighting, not for bouncing around point sparring or under a competition rule set. But yes, you can use it for wrestling or PH as well. And yes, it's a strategy that works well if "someone is out to hurt you". But again, and as always, it depends on the situation and the movability of your opponent and on the environment as well.

I like how my teacher expressed it. He meant that you should "close three of your opponent's four doors and leave one open". Then you can, at least most of the time, know what limb your opponent is going to attack you with. A lot of Chinese classical fighting strategy is about leading your opponent to do things without him knowing that you are one step ahead of him. Like Bull fighting methods or leading the donkey with holding a carrot in front of him. But again, if someone is already jumping around free and try to keep distance, no a lot of these methods won't work.

The kick opponent front leg(shin) is a good option if have to fight for real, made as a stop kick or for distraction, if wearing hard sole shoes the greater the distraction


Good strategy I won't argue about that, but I don't think that this is what Mr Wang meant. But of course I could be mistaken. :-\
Last edited by Bao on Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby johnwang on Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:03 am

Trick wrote:your approach of step in make contact with legs i would never try against someone who are out to hurt me,

The "leading leg contact" is used when you try to move in toward your opponent. If your opponent moves in toward you, he is doing the "close distance" for you. He may just run into your punch or kick and you may not even have to move in.

If you are "out to hurt your opponent", to achieve your goal - "establish a leading leg contact", you can use a:

1. toe push kick to the leading leg shin.
2. low side kick to the leading leg shin.
3. low reverse side kick to the leading leg shin.
4. low roundhouse kick to the inside leading leg.
5. low roundhouse kick to the outside leading leg.
6. shin-bite/sticky-lift/scoop/sweep to the inside leading leg.
7. shin-bite/sticky-lift/scoop/sweep to the outside leading leg.
8. knee strike to the inside upper leg.
9. inside hook to the leading leg.
10. outside hook to the leading leg.
11. ... (you may help me to finish this list.)

Here is an example for 9. inside hook to the leading leg. You move in when your opponent is "on guard".

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:45 pm

These are all great kicks. Is Shin-bite like Guadifeng? I almost never kick above the waist. Why should I when there are such easily kicked targets below and they can't defend against them?
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby johnwang on Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:21 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Shin-bite like Guadifeng?

This is shin bite (45 degree downward). From there, you can

- sticky lift (straight up),
- scoop (horizontal toward yourself), or
- sweep (45 degree upward).

It's 4 in 1 package.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby Trick on Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:29 pm

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:your approach of step in make contact with legs i would never try against someone who are out to hurt me,

The "leading leg contact" is used when you try to move in toward your opponent. If your opponent moves in toward you, he is doing the "close distance" for you. He may just run into your punch or kick and you may not even have to move in.

If you are "out to hurt your opponent", to achieve your goal - "establish a leading leg contact", you can use a:

1. toe push kick to the leading leg shin.
2. low side kick to the leading leg shin.
3. low reverse side kick to the leading leg shin.
4. low roundhouse kick to the inside leading leg.
5. low roundhouse kick to the outside leading leg.
6. shin-bite/sticky-lift/scoop/sweep to the inside leading leg.
7. shin-bite/sticky-lift/scoop/sweep to the outside leading leg.
8. knee strike to the inside upper leg.
9. inside hook to the leading leg.
10. outside hook to the leading leg.
11. ... (you may help me to finish this list.)

Here is an example for 9. inside hook to the leading leg. You move in when your opponent is "on guard".


Yes, as i wrote in my two previous posts, shin kicks and foot/leg sweeps can be good options for attack/defence against an aggressor.
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Re: Worth it to Learn..

Postby marvin8 on Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:40 pm

Trick wrote:. . . The kick opponent front leg(shin) is a good option if have to fight for real, made as a stop kick or for distraction, if wearing hard sole shoes the greater the distraction
I agree that kicks to the front leg can be effective.

The following video includes a nice discussion on low kicks.
@ 16:00:
Fighting is not what you actually throw. A good coach is going to teach you positioning, distance. He’s going to tell you more philosophies and strategies around fighting.

@ 17:23:
It’s about mobility in my opinion . . . You got to be able to adapt. If you’re fighting a pressure fighter you have to be able to move and fight on angles. If you are fighting a guy who now likes to move around a lot you got to be able to pressure fight. So, you have to have the coaching and knowledge to be able to adapt accordingly.

@ 40:00:
. . . A good low kick is based off timing. If I am going to lead with a low kick against a wrestler, he’s going to take me down every time. But, I think it’s the timing of the low kick that people need to understand. If someone is exiting backwards, that’s your time for the low kick. . . . As soon as they get out of punch range, that’s perfect low kick timing. . . . If every time you punch I smash your leg, you’re not going to want to punch me. And that’s the timing I use. As soon as someone jabs, you take the leg. Because when someone punches they have to put their weight on the front leg. And once you put your weight on the front leg, you can no longer block at that point. So if you watch any of my fights or guys with good low kicks, they usually time the low kicks off the hands or the step. Because, every time you step you got to be heavy on your front foot and that’s the opportunity to hit that low kick. So, you want to look for free kicks. Those that they can’t block. As they are exiting up or as they step in. You try to find those free ones when they are planted on their legs, as they can’t lift up their leg and block. . . .

Streamed live on Jan 18, 2017
Joseph "Bazooka Joe" Valtellini is a former world kickboxing champion, who currently can be heard doing color commentary for Glory Kickboxing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlNvTTfUJ1A

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:Bao, your approach of step in make contact with legs i would never try against someone who are out to hurt me, but in a push hand exchange it works.


The question is about how the other person move. What did you mean, how do that person move and how do that person try to hurt me? I would say that in a competition environment or against a bouncer, it's very hard and sometime impossible. If you are fixated with the common sparring style kind of sparring where to people bounce around, no, this won't work. Just having that mind-set will probably mean that your timing will be off for this kind of move. This move is not something you chase, but your timing must be good. . . . This is a strategy for real fighting, not for bouncing around point sparring or under a competition rule set. But yes, you can use it for wrestling or PH as well. And yes, it's a strategy that works well if "someone is out to hurt you". But again, and as always, it depends on the situation and the movability of your opponent and on the environment as well. . . . But again, if someone is already jumping around free and try to keep distance, no a lot of these methods won't work.

Not sure if I am understanding correctly. However, why practice moves that only work if someone is not moving around? If you watch real fights. people move. As far as "Chinese" way or "IMA" strategy, modern fighting has a wide range of strategies including the "Chinese" or "IMA" way, depending on the opponent's strength(s) and weakness(s).

Here is an analysis of an upcoming fight Cormier vs Jackson. I do not see a lot of "bouncing" or "jumping." I see forward pressure, adhere, positioning, etc.

Published on Apr 3, 2017
In the first episode of Inside The Octagon for UFC 210, John Gooden and Dan Hardy analyze the light heavyweight rematch between champion Daniel Cormier and Anthony "Rumble" Johnson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hij844Zualw
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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