orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby BruceP on Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:53 am

Pavel Macek wrote:Gentlemen, the guy on the right is just feeding. It is not a sparring video - we have plenty of those on our channel, feel free to check it out.


Not clicking the bait.

That said, I get the video and it's good for what's being practiced. But where does it go from there? How does what you posted progress beyond the free interplay of extension and evasion? Woulda been nice to see the feet in that clip. Maybe post a clip that shows your sparring without directing traffic to your site?


There's a lot of nonsense out there regards 'sparring'. Sparring for sparring's sake is a dead-end if fighting ability is the pursuit. I've asked in the past what people are sparring for - what's the purpose? If it's meant to prepare someone for competition, then sparring should be as close to the competitive format as can be safely practiced. If sparring is meant to prepare one for actual fighting, it quickly becomes martial masturbation - especially so when it's structured around a particular MA style. People commenting on clips which are meant to demonstrate a segment of movement and reactionary counter-movement show the shallowness of their understanding on both counts, but how can anyone really blame them if they, themselves, haven't explored fightiness in a fighty manner?
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby everything on Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:02 pm

Some things have to be a drill. If this drill is specifically to practice having strong hand as a lead hand, it seems interesting to me (would be interested in details of what is being done and why, what the style is about, etc.).

For me personally, my left (weaker) side is messed up with previous injuries, so it's hard to imagine not preferring my right side forward, but the sword/knife stuff kinda scrambled my brain. Exactly the "I don't know what I don't know" kind of example that I was hoping might come up in some answers.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Pavel Macek on Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:41 pm

BruceP: We at PHK a) start sparring form day one b) have very clear, step by step methodology of sparring c) use many, many different modes of sparring - not only the commonly seen sport sparring (which is still very useful). We do 1 vs 2, 1 vs multiple, weapons (knife, stick) involved, weapon vs. weapon, pre-aranged, free, light, full, etc. Plenty of videos on our Youtube channel. And btw., we just our first fighter in a MMA match.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:34 pm

I watched some more videos and remained unimpressed, until this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY8lGrX9Pew

That is actually one of the better CMA sparring videos that I've seen from the West. There could be more CMA applications in there, though. I'm seeing mostly Sanda. Still, not bad at all. If I hadn't seen that video I would think the school is absolute shite, though. When you demo with someone that reacts like a six year old girl you lose all credibility. :)

Anyways, I'm not trying to be an arsehole. I'll probably never meet you and you could care less about my opinion. Just providing some constructive criticism. Do with it what you like.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby klonk on Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:34 pm

It occurs to me that the knife hand forward method of knife fighting (See Biddle, Steyrs, etc.) corresponds nearly exactly to BL's idea about the strongest weapon to the nearest target. That's not surprising since both derive from fencing.

In the world of knife-forward fighting, as in fencing, the adversary's hand and wrist are high-value targets, and often the nearest. The other fellow cannot do you much harm if he cannot hold his weapon. The trouble with this is that in unarmed combat, it is much more difficult to attack the hand in a way that is suddenly and decisively effective. I hold, or at least deserve, the title of world's worst at chin na. So for me, the idea of "nearest target" begins to fall apart under examination, since I cannot do much to damage the hand or wrist unless I use a weapon.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Steve James on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:25 pm

I think BL's idea of why he uses a right lead is illustrated in the Bob Wall fight from Enter the Dragon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpu_lTDyd88
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:32 pm

True, but the face will be a lot closer as well. For tall people with long arms and/or legs it's not much of a reach. That said I'd probably still hold the knife in the right hand and wrap the left in a coat or something.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Steve James on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:02 pm

I'd probably still hold the knife in the right hand and wrap the left in a coat or something.


Sounds reasonable to me. I'm not sure anyone would suggest holding the weapon in the less dominant hand. Imo, the connection that BL makes to fencing has more to do with his use of the lunge. His theory was to get his strongest weapon to the nearest target first. I think he might argue that the tradition of having a shield arm is the reason putting the left hand forward became orthodox. I don't know if that's historically true. But, I don't know if there's a better explanation. For ex., higher primates, while not necessarily ambidextrous, do not show a tendency toward either left or right-handedness. So, I'd argue that the orthodox stance is not an evolutionary development. http://scienceblogs.com/developingintel ... -handedne/
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:13 pm

Sorry, I should have said REAR hand, which happens to be my right.

I think that the shield idea makes a lot of sense. Shields evolved into little bucklers, which evolved into a dagger and cloak and finally boxing. Seems like a very logical process, except that fencing was with the right foot forward... That lasted several hundred years as well, so people couldn't have easily said "Alright everyone, let's go back to the old way!".
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:23 pm

To be fair, though, in the video the way that they begin the fight, already in contact with one another, makes it easier to use the lead hand in that way. Still, I reckon that if I'd never learned Taekwondo and Sanda that I might fight with right hand forward as well. It's too late for me.. Save yourself...
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:28 pm

klonk wrote:It occurs to me that the knife hand forward method of knife fighting (See Biddle, Steyrs, etc.) corresponds nearly exactly to BL's idea about the strongest weapon to the nearest target. That's not surprising since both derive from fencing.

In the world of knife-forward fighting, as in fencing, the adversary's hand and wrist are high-value targets, and often the nearest. The other fellow cannot do you much harm if he cannot hold his weapon. The trouble with this is that in unarmed combat, it is much more difficult to attack the hand in a way that is suddenly and decisively effective. I hold, or at least deserve, the title of world's worst at chin na. So for me, the idea of "nearest target" begins to fall apart under examination, since I cannot do much to damage the hand or wrist unless I use a weapon.

You'd better get in fucking line. It is I who am the worst at Qinna! Rawr!!!

On a serious note. I absolutely believe in Qinna's effectiveness, having witnessed my master inflict horrible pain and suffering on many people (including yours truly) in a free-sparring format. That being said, I think it only works on people that have a lower level of Gongfu than oneself and that it is more of a specialist skill after one can already fight well.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Overlord on Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:37 am

everything wrote:First off, I know nothing about boxing and have never had a lesson, so feel free to back way up to some basic comments.

I was just wondering - especially if you have some boxing or JKD experience behind this opinion - if you prefer an orthodox weak hand forward jab or a JKD type of strong lead hand and why? If you have no experience, feel free to wildly speculate, too. I always imagined I would prefer the JKD unorthodox method, but then my weak hand shoulder is pretty messed up.


Hi every

I usually won't comment any style of martial arts if I have not a "feel" for it~
As far as JKD is concerned, if your leading hand cannot produce the crisp one inch force 寸勁,
there is really nothing to talk about~
There is a lot of claim to know one inch punch, in reality it's very difficult to master~
And a very refine process and result~

The concept is like what Steve James was saying, leading hand is the weapon, and weapon first.
武器先動。The leading hand is not too high, about level of solar plexus.
Why, bc you have balls, need to keep them safe.
Boxing is bit different mind set I think, thus the form of anticipation is drastically different.

Now if the legs are involved, because you want to avoid placing you head near the range of foot you will tend to stand tall
Avoid head get KO, then we have Muaythai~

Strategically speaking, two hands up in Muaythai is like Chinese 三戰 in Southern style, at the same time preserve the mobility and kicking in long range. JKD however, aims to minimise self exposure to the front, aiming going to the opening full on, while Muaythai or boxing appears to surround opponents by the sides, gradually cornering the target.

Hope this help~ and answer your question correctly.

Over
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby everything on Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:14 pm

Over, thanks a lot. Those different contextual considerations make a lot of sense. Same thing with the one inch force.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Pavel Macek on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:04 pm

Overlord: excellent info, thank you.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby BruceP on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:13 pm

Pavel Macek wrote:BruceP: We at PHK a) start sparring form day one b) have very clear, step by step methodology of sparring c) use many, many different modes of sparring - not only the commonly seen sport sparring (which is still very useful). We do 1 vs 2, 1 vs multiple, weapons (knife, stick) involved, weapon vs. weapon, pre-aranged, free, light, full, etc. Plenty of videos on our Youtube channel. And btw., we just our first fighter in a MMA match.



Well, that's good news, Pavel. Refreshing to see others mapping out progression with clear goals and purposes. Not a lot of that going on.

Was referring to the guy disparaging your video, btw.
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