orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby everything on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:09 pm

It doesn't really matter. Invention of an idea is important but not what patent lawyers would like you to believe. Execution (including popularization, diffusion of adoption, commercialization, influence) is much more important. Xerox PARC didn't execute on its mouse invention, but Apple did. One of these is forgotten to everyone but tech nerds or historians. The other one is the most valuable company in the world, known to everyone. Regardless, if Cung Le and Anderson Silva and Jon Jones learned from JKD theory, then BL's influence was already outsized relative to the idea, since these people themselves are so influential. They appeared to have learned about due to BL's popularization of some ideas, but it doesn't really matter. My question is still about weak or strong hand, regardless of how much we assume BL is or is not involved. It is interesting, though, to have an MA historical debate about BL.

I like BL. However, I agree with you in general in a sort of distaste of idea popularizers - Malcolm Gladwell is particularly annoying. So is that woman who does TED talks about body posture (we in IMA already knew all about that and she is, from this pov, saying almost nothing yet is lauded like crazy about it. TED talks almost all rub me the wrong way for this reason).
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Steve James on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:21 pm

We should be grateful to him that he helped popularise Gongfu and openly taught foreigners


I agree that we could trace mixing martial arts back through ancient times. I don't think it's possible to give him too much credit for the explosion of Chinese martial arts in the U.S. His effect was large enough that it created an atmosphere to allow cultural exchange between the US and China. There's no more influential person of Chinese descent in the US in the latter half of the 20th century.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:49 pm

Sorry for the confusion I was not referring to the Spanish Espada Yi daga but the Phillipineo
You are right the stick is no weaker but mainly used as a foil for the knife to do its damage
In single stick it is quite often the fist or elbow of the empty hand that does the damage
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Steve James on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:03 pm

Just cause there's been some fencing theory mentioned, somebody might be interested in this link. http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManua ... grippa.htm
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:42 pm

Actually, at least Ceng Le got his lead leg sidekick from Sanda, not JKD.

I agree that the CMA popularity explosion can largely be attributed to him.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Fa Xing on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:24 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Actually, at least Ceng Le got his lead leg sidekick from Sanda, not JKD.

I agree that the CMA popularity explosion can largely be attributed to him.


Pretty sure it actually came from his Tae Kwon Do background.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby everything on Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:56 pm

Thanks I think I read that too.

Anyway the good ideas do spread. I don't want to overemphasize BL. I just thought of him for straight lead in unorthodox stance. It's hard to trace it back to ancient times although the fencing history is totally fascinating (my knowledge is ONLY from movies and RSF!). RSF is mainly about "mma" in the sense that it covers the "big 3" CIMA and people like to try to train all 3. Going to read the fencing stuff and check out Sugar Ray Robinson (highlights look great so far just in agility).
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby klonk on Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:53 pm

On the single knife, using it in the forward hand or in the rear hand:

Use of the knife held in reserve in the rear hand and attacking Roman Legions style is a widely used method. Rex Applegate's Combat Use of the Double-Edged Fighting Knife is one book about it.

Here's a Marine video:


Such methods can be improved by protecting your forward hand and arm somehow; one such method had you using your hat as a shield of sorts. Another had you wrap your forward arm in your cloak--these days you'd use a jacket.


Use of the knife in the forward hand against the nearest available target is a very old and well-established method too, described, for instance, in George Silver's Brief Instructions On My Paradoxes of Defense, but his instructions are rather muddled in Elizabethan verbiage. You stay behind your point and use mobility and the threat of the point for your defense.

George Silver wrote:Of the single dagger fight against the like weapon

Cap. 15.

1. First know that to this weapon there belongs no wards or grips but against such a one as is foolhardy & will suffer himself to have a full stab in the face or body or hazard the giving of another, then against him you may use your left hand in throwing him aside or strike up his heels after you have stabbed him.

2. In this dagger fight, you must use continual motion so shall he not be able to put you to the close or grip, because your continual motion disappoints him of his true place, & the more fierce he is in running in, the sooner he gains you the place, whereby he is wounded, & you not anything the rather endangered.

3. The manner of handling your continual motion is this, keep out of distance & strike or thrust at his hand, arm, face or body, that shall press upon you, & if he defends blow or thrust with his dagger make your blow or thrust at his hand.

4. If he comes in with his left leg forewards or with the right, do you strike at that part as soon as it shall be within reach, remembering that you use continual motion in your progression & regression according to your twofold governors.

5. Although the dagger fight is thought a very dangerous fight by reason of the shortness & singleness thereof, yet the fight thereof being handled as is aforesaid, is as safe & as defensive as the fight of any other weapon, this ends my brief instructions.

FINIS.


Here's a video based on similar ideas but a few centuries after Silver (this is from Hutton's book):



Of the two approaches I prefer the sword and shield analog that has a (protected) left arm out there to defend your body and clear the way for the knife that attacks from the rear. Of course doing it the other way has some good points to it. The conceptual clarity of the knife hand forward method is outstanding and so that way of doing things may be easier to master.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby klonk on Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:14 pm

I regard rapier and dagger as a different animal from either a single sword, or sword and shield. The rapier was forward, the dagger to the rear. The dagger served as a means of parrying near to the body and for attacks if things got scrunched into near distance. There are lots of surviving manuals about it, but as it has never been a matter of deep interest for me I will leave further commentary to people who know more, Jaime in Spain for example.

Everybody ought to know a little about the knife because knives are ubiquitous tools and weapons. Saber fencing can be adapted to defending yourself with a cane.

So far as unarmed striking arts I think the left lead has repeatedly proven its merit and it is my own preference, but again, it is not the only sensible way to proceed.

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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Steve James on Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:08 pm

No disagreement. As I wrote, a lot, if not all, depends on what the other guy has and how he uses it. Afa the Applegate/Fairbain method, I think the idea of the knife in the dominant hand is the same. The difference is whether it is forward or to the rear. Now, the Roman shield analogy is appropriate because using a wrapped arm as a shield makes perfect sense. If the opponent is unarmed, from the offensive pov, it's ideal because the one with the knife is probably going to do the attacking. (And, as you know, Applegate, et al, trained to fight dirty and use every possible advantage. :)).
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Pavel Macek on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:14 am

Check out this article & video:

PHK Plum Blossom Set “Right Lead” Application Drills

http://practicalhungkyun.com/2017/03/ph ... on-drills/
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:19 pm

Was not impressed by that video..
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby BruceP on Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:50 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Was not impressed by that video..


It's way better on mute
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:33 pm

That's what I had it on. The person on the right was reacting like a six year old girl.
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Re: orthodox weak hand jab or JKD lead strong hand?

Postby Pavel Macek on Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:13 am

Gentlemen, the guy on the right is just feeding. It is not a sparring video - we have plenty of those on our channel, feel free to check it out.
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