How much external before internal?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: How much external before internal?

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:57 am

windwalker wrote:
Jaspalfie wrote:I think it would be true to say that a fair few internal schools follow the path of doing external training (through whatever foundation exercises) followed by a shift in focus to internal aspects. I'm just wondering people's thoughts on how much external is enough before focusing on internal aspects of training and if they feel there are consequences for switching to the internal aspects too early or too late?


Just reading the basic question indicates a flawed understanding of what internal / external means and what it deals with.
They are very different paths training the same system "human body" to achieve different ends.

One does not magical evolve into the other as is put forth by some people, each path is physical demanding although some
might suggest that what is billed as internal is not, only indicating another lack of understanding.

The better, more clear question might be what is it that one is trying and expecting achieve.

All CMA has / includes both types of training done to develop and achieve different ends.
In mid to beginning levels of training many things might seem the same, done for very different reasons.

The problem with the "shift in focus" is that many aspects may have already been ingrained and may not be able to be undone if at all.


Nice.

I was going to say something like that about shifting focus, in the way described - in that I don't really agree with it and prefer to focus on 'balance'.
We have a number of systems that need consideration in a martial context.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:10 am

yes,

I think stance/foundation work like posture holding can straddle certain external/internal considerations at basic levels. You can dial up the external, by making them physically more challenging, or they can be dialled the other way where the internal work is more challenging and prominent.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Young Grasshopper on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:17 am

Stance/foundation training shouldn't matter if its external or internal, correct form is the key and should translate well. But the further you go into that type of training internal or external the more fixed you become in that way of moving, making it more difficult to switch.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby cloudz on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:32 am

what is this rsf black magic
my previous reply was after young grasshoppers, the yes was in agreement to that ^ post.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Young Grasshopper on Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:40 am

My fault I think I deleted the post somehow anyway its back up now. On with the discussion!
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:49 am

Honestly, internal is just a load of rubbish. It's just the natural course of progression for one's movements and power generation to become more refined and internalised - more efficient. There is no way to start with internal. There are methods to speed up this progression, but we should not put too much emphasis on them and replace the hard work that everyone needs to do to become adept at fighting. As soon as we begin putting labels on things and separating them we lose sight of what we were trying to achieve in the first place.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Overlord on Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:00 am

johnwang wrote:For "health", if we compare the following drills,

1. Swing your leg over your head 20 times.
2. Drill long fist crescent kick 20 times.
3. Drill XingYi Beng Chuan 40 times.
4. Drill Taiji brush knee twist step 40 times.
5. Drill Bagua circle walking 40 times.

Drill 1 and 2 will give you the best exercise. It will help you to develop:

- balance,
- flexibility,
- endurance,
- ...

Why do you just want to do 3, 4, 5 and don't want to do 1 and 2? If you want to live healthy and long life, you have to do external.

Image

Image


Totally with you here John!
May I modified Bengquan 400 right foot and 400 left foot.
And 100 正踢腿 for each leg.
And on top of that put your mind into it! Yep Xinyi!

Awesome!!
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:24 am

Do "internal" guys ever train "kicking skill"? Is "kicking skill" considered as external?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Steve James on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:28 am

Is "kicking skill" considered as external?


It's like punching, throwing, sitting, standing, or walking. Everything's either internal or external to some.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:49 am

Both my yang style tai chi and my hsing I have their own kicking sets
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:40 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Both my yang style tai chi and my hsing I have their own kicking sets

What's the difference between long fist kick, Taiji kick, and XingYi kick? The moment that you kick your leg out, are you doing external? Are you doing external when you walk, lift luggage, push car, carry grocery, ... How can you avoid external during your daily activity?

Is there a world that's pure "internal"? What is one full day of "internal" life may look like?
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Fa Xing on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:05 pm

I was told by Tim Cartmell at Xu Zhenwang's (Xu Hongji's son) school, they would practice kicking exercises that didn't come from Xingyi. Honestly, it great dynamic mobility and cardiovascular training.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby johnwang on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:35 pm

Fa Xing wrote:I was told by Tim Cartmell at Xu Zhenwang's (Xu Hongji's son) school, they would practice kicking exercises that didn't come from Xingyi. Honestly, it great dynamic mobility and cardiovascular training.

I had asked this question before. What's the difference between long fist front kick, Taiji front kick, and XingYi front kick? After so many years of CMA training, I truly can't tell any difference.

So the simple question is when you are training Taiji "right/left separate leg", or XingYi "thunder and lighting strike together", how will you know that you are training "internal" and not external? You can't say you are do an "internal" kick because you are a Taiji guy.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:32 pm

What is internal and what is external is the question
It is about the Shen fa of differing schools
Training two different types of Shen fa at the same time divides the focus
The old saying
The hard becomes soft,the soft becomes hard.this shows that either way leads to the same point.
However training one system before mastering the other is like takin two steps forward and one back
All systems have both internal and external training
Different systems train them at different times in differing ways
I don't write here for people who have been training for a long time and made up their mind to what is what.
My only reason for offering my views is to help those who are young in their training and might loose their way due to advice offered with an agender in mind that might be ill advised or meant to mislead
Take my writings with a grain of salt
If they help accept them if not consider them the ramblings of an old man
It is my duty as an elder in a proud tradition to offer them none the same
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Fa Xing on Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:24 pm

johnwang wrote:
Fa Xing wrote:I was told by Tim Cartmell at Xu Zhenwang's (Xu Hongji's son) school, they would practice kicking exercises that didn't come from Xingyi. Honestly, it great dynamic mobility and cardiovascular training.

I had asked this question before. What's the difference between long fist front kick, Taiji front kick, and XingYi front kick? After so many years of CMA training, I truly can't tell any difference.

So the simple question is when you are training Taiji "right/left separate leg", or XingYi "thunder and lighting strike together", how will you know that you are training "internal" and not external? You can't say you are do an "internal" kick because you are a Taiji guy.


I guess it's good then that I don't distinguish between internal/external, just good posture, structure, technique, and conditioning. ;D
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