How much external before internal?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Overlord on Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:10 am

johnwang wrote:Do "internal" guys ever train "kicking skill"? Is "kicking skill" considered as external?


FYI.
Yes John. There is a difference.
It's very subtle. Neither is better than the other one.

Cheers,
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby everything on Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:51 am

Patrick wrote:
Funny thing about running. No technique was taught in school, I was terrible. Nothing came natural. But much later in life I learned running technique from my IMA practice.


I have similar experiences. I ran two half marathons with very little additional "running training" using Yi Quan principles and barefoot shoes. :)


There is an interesting Tim Ferriss podcast with Christopher Sommer (gymnastics coach), who was saying he went out to run a marathon with zero training. The reason he could do it wasn't about breathing - it was because his body could already take much worse impact (landing from flips, etc.) and the impact of running didn't feel bad. For me, running is not hard because of the breathing (maybe IMA has helped), but because of the joint impact. More so in middle age.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Patrick on Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:16 am

I had knee pain too before I changed my running style. Legs/feet not too far in front of the body (weight centered), using a flat footed running style (middle foot landing) on slow/medium speed. When increasing the speed, I increase the rhythm and not the stride. Also I have thrown out every padded shoe I had years ago.
Besides a little soreness after the runs no joint pain at all.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby johnwang on Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:13 pm

If you can't fight your opponent, at least you should have the ability to run away. IMO, running should be an important part of the MA training. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of his MA skill can apply on you.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby bartekb on Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:24 pm

johnwang wrote:If you can't fight your opponent, at least you should have the ability to run away. IMO, running should be an important part of the MA training. If you can run faster than your opponent, none of his MA skill can apply on you.

Mr Wang, its funny you think its not worth training ground fighting but you think its worth training running away:)
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby johnwang on Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:17 pm

bartekb wrote:Mr Wang, its funny you think its not worth training ground fighting but you think its worth training running away:)

I'm 100% in favor of training ground skill.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby blotter420 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:11 pm

I say you start with Internal 8-)
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby Overlord on Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:35 am

robert wrote:I suspect it depends on the art, but if you want to learn taiji why would you do any external training? Chen Ziqiang says he started standing when he was 3.

"I started my training at three years old," Ziqiang tells me. "For the first couple of years, all I did was standing meditation. I didn't like it, but no child would like long periods of just standing. So my father would bribe me to train. One time my father came back from Japan where he had been teaching, and he brought back a small television. My father knew I liked cartoons, especially Mickey Mouse. So to get me to train, he said I could watch the cartoons after my training each day. That got me to do my training. Later, I got my inspiration from my older brother, Chen Bing."

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=681

Here is a video of Chen Pengfei (Chen Xiaowang's 3rd son) at 3 or 4 years old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM-EKKy4354

Why not train relaxed strength, correct posture, and learn the principles of the art you want to study from the start?


Just to clarify, Chen Pengfei start training with Basic Wushu stretch and kicks.
And CXW were described to be one of the greatest kicker by those who know him very well~
ZZ is something you build up with times~
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Last edited by Overlord on Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby robert on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:21 am

Overlord wrote:Just to clarify, Chen Pengfei start training with Basic Wushu stretch and kicks.

Chen Xiaowang said his son was 3 when that video was filmed and Chen Pengfei was born in 1988 so that seems reasonable. Let's say he worked on the form for a year - so you're saying Chen Pengfei started doing wushu stretches and kicks when he was 1 year old?

Taiji is all about stretching - what makes it external? There are some things you don't stretch in the form, like the hamstrings, so I think it is important to do some hamstring stretches as part of warm ups and there are other stretches people may want to add in as well.

Kicks are part of internal forms and if done as part of an internal system should be done internally. I've been taught kick sets as part of both xingyi and taiji systems.

Overlord wrote:ZZ is something you build up with times~

I posted the link to the interview with CZQ, you can read it for yourself. I've seen other kids at Chen Xiaoxing's school who were 3-5 years old practicing ZZ. It's not just internal martial arts - after learning taiji for a year I was in Taipei and worked with a praying mantis guy. He taught me an 18 posture taiji qigong and a praying mantis standing set. After I learned the standing set he had a 5 or 6 year old kid do it with me - and of course the kid was much better - lower stances that he could hold longer.

Overlord wrote:And CXE were described to be one of the greatest kicker by those who know him very well~

Who is CXE?
Last edited by robert on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby bartekb on Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:14 am

johnwang wrote:I'm 100% in favor of training ground skill.]

what about ground defense? :) or ground recovery?
its a nice 10s movie but very risky combination - armbar is a risk finisher - if done wrong - leaves us on the bottom, easier to stay on top and choke or control
Last edited by bartekb on Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much external before internal?

Postby johnwang on Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:31 pm

bartekb wrote:what about ground defense? :) or ground recovery?

IMO, both ground defense and ground recovery are part of the ground skill. CMA is weak in this area and has to borrow from BJJ.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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