Orbits

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Orbits

Postby Ed Ladnar on Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:32 pm

What do you think of "sink the chest and pluck up the back" = pull down the front and pull up the back = macrocosmic (or microscopic) orbit?
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Re: Orbits

Postby charles on Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:30 am

What prompts you to make the above statement?
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Re: Orbits

Postby Ed Ladnar on Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:58 am

Just thinking, reading, training, and maybe a little Mary Jane to get the thoughts flowing. Trying to make sense out of statements in the classics. Press the head up forcelessly is another one on my mind lately. Was recently at a seminar where we worked on feeling "down the front and up the back" and I thought hey that sounds familiar. Just wondering what others think it means to sink the chest and pluck up the back.
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Re: Orbits

Postby robert on Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:58 am

Ed Ladnar wrote:What do you think of "sink the chest and pluck up the back" = pull down the front and pull up the back = macrocosmic (or microscopic) orbit?

I think it is a postural requirement to connect the body as well as to sink the qi to dantian. I would consider it a requirement for micro/macrocosmic orbit, but it doesn't equate to it; something else is still required, movement or visualization depending on your school of thought. As a martial artist movement makes sense to me ;)
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Re: Orbits

Postby Bao on Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:06 pm

So you mean small and great circulation?

Great circulation means that qi circulates freely in the arms and legs. For circulating through the arms, yes the correct alignment and movement is necessary, i.e. "han xiong, ba bei". For small circulation, only mind and breath needs to be coordinated together with relaxation of the body. External movement or a certain alignment is not necessary
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Re: Orbits

Postby charles on Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:35 pm

Ed Ladnar wrote:Just thinking, reading, training, and maybe a little Mary Jane to get the thoughts flowing. Trying to make sense out of statements in the classics.


Training is good, as is thinking about what you are training.

The Classics, however, are not written in such a way as to be particularly insightful to those working their way through their training. They were not written to be an explicit "how to" and they are usually not well translated. Trying to make sense out of them as a prescription on what or how to train is largely an exercise in frustration if one is without someone sufficiently skilled to explain what is being described.


Press the head up forcelessly is another one on my mind lately.


One of the difficulties in writing about Taijiquan is that much of it is subjective and cannot be accurately, explicitly and unambiguously described in words. Instead, people attempt to find words to describe experiences, but the words fall short in adequately doing so.

"Press the head up forcelessly", is one such example. The word "press" implies the application of force. To "press forcelessly" isn't meaningful: it is a contradiction. It should, then, come as no surprise that that has little effective meaning.


Was recently at a seminar where we worked on feeling "down the front and up the back" and I thought hey that sounds familiar.


At the seminar what were you doing to work on feeling "down the front and up the back"? And, what was the purpose of feeling that or doing that?

Just wondering what others think it means to sink the chest and pluck up the back.


Sinking the chest is a largely physical action that involves relaxing the torso in a specific way. It does not involve any forceful action - more the absence of action, or letting go. If you do that correctly, "plucking up the back" takes care of itself. Some suggest that a specific action of "plucking up the back" is an error or mis-statement.

Regardless, if one is moving, the torso is not held in a single static posture. Instead, it continually alternates between opening and closing.
Last edited by charles on Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Orbits

Postby KEND on Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:57 pm

The chest and back movement are a result of raising the hui yin
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Re: Orbits

Postby charles on Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:19 pm

KEND wrote:The chest and back movement are a result of raising the hui yin


I can raise/lift my perineum with zero chest movement and negligible back movement. I find no cause-and-effect between lifting the perineum and movement of the chest or upper back. YMMV. On the other hand, movement of the "greater" abdomen, that results in the perineum lifting, is a different story.
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Re: Orbits

Postby Ed Ladnar on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:02 pm

So it sounds like not only does no one agree with my initial thought about these concepts being equivalent, but no one even agrees on what these concepts mean individually. Shouldn't we be a bit concerned about that? If we're talking about models to describe a physical experience and physical movement of the body, I would hope for more consensus.
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Re: Orbits

Postby Ed Ladnar on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:08 pm

One more thing: it seems pretty universal that macrocosmic orbit goes up the back and down the front. Yet no one thinks that is connected (no pun intended?) to pluck up the back and sink the chest?
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Re: Orbits

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:32 pm

Ed Ladnar wrote:What do you think of "sink the chest and pluck up the back" = pull down the front and pull up the back = macrocosmic (or microscopic) orbit?


some might infer this as part of the making or understanding of how to do this.

Image
https://spark.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

If one can understand and do this then all or most of what has been mentioned has to come into play...

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass


Another way of looking at it.

Shouldn't we be a bit concerned about that? If we're talking about models to describe a physical experience and physical movement of the body, I would hope for more consensus.


The only one who should be concerned is the one who asks. What others do or not, should not have any influence on ones own practice once it reaches a certain point.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Orbits

Postby charles on Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:10 pm

Ed Ladnar wrote:... no one even agrees on what these concepts mean individually. Shouldn't we be a bit concerned about that?


As Windwalker points out, people do agree, but it is amongst those who have a common background or basis. It is between groups of differing background that the meanings differ.

In many facets of life, different groups of people experience similar things but have different cultural understandings and explanations for that experience, particularly across human history.


If we're talking about models to describe a physical experience and physical movement of the body, I would hope for more consensus.


Why would we? One culture describes experiences in terms of "qi", "jin" and "orbits". Another culture describes the experiences differently. That might be due to different explanations of the same common experience, or it might be explanations of different experiences. In some cases, the same words can be used to describe very different experiences.

The bottom line, from my perspective, is to find someone who has well-developed skills that you want to also develop. Study with that teacher and do what he or she says to do to attain the skills you want to achieve. The rest doesn't matter, what the skills are called, or who is calling them what. It's about the skills, themselves, not the labels applied to those skills: "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet".


One more thing: it seems pretty universal that macrocosmic orbit goes up the back and down the front. Yet no one thinks that is connected (no pun intended?) to pluck up the back and sink the chest?


It's all "connected". It simply isn't the connection that you are suggesting. Sinking the chest and "plucking up" the back doesn't cause the circulation of qi. The first clue should be the word "circulation" (i.e. "orbit"). Sinking the chest and "plucking up" the back are static postural statements. Attempting to move while maintaining the chest continually sunk and the back continuously "plucked up" will prevent the circulation you describe. Think of the term "Taiji" and what it means.: a constant alternation between a thing and its opposite. How does that practically apply to the art of Taijiquan? What opposites are involved and what does that have to do with the chest and back? What, if anything, does that alternation have to do with the macrocosmic orbit you are trying to understand?
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Re: Orbits

Postby KEND on Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:24 am

The raising and lowering are as a result of creating the microcosmic orbit, not creating it. The microcosmic orbit is not surface, it is deeper and follows the route of the nerves, you eventually need to only think about the initial point, the intermediate point[tongue] and final point,
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Re: Orbits

Postby everything on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:53 am

Bao wrote:So you mean small and great circulation?

Great circulation means that qi circulates freely in the arms and legs. For circulating through the arms, yes the correct alignment and movement is necessary, i.e. "han xiong, ba bei". For small circulation, only mind and breath needs to be coordinated together with relaxation of the body. External movement or a certain alignment is not necessary


Nice answer. After a while when you feel this or that, you realize "oh ok so that's it; I'm starting to feel/understand that." If you get hung up on not understanding something, that seems to create a kind of tension in your mind and body that is unfortunately counterproductive. So if you do not understand/feel something, it's probably better not to worry about it too much. If you ask 100 people (who probably do not understand it either) and get 100 answers, that is probably really counterproductive as well. As windwalker mentioned, we shouldn't worry about those people and answers.
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Re: Orbits

Postby Subitai on Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:37 pm

Image

I thought about this upon reading the heading... sorry couldn't resist :P
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