space no force, force no space

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

space no force, force no space

Postby rojcewiczj on Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:22 am

when to use force? When there is no space. How to cover space? use no force.

What are your thoughts on the issue of space and use of force? Lately. I've come to see my martial arts practice as the physical training necessary to develop and apply my spatial intelligence
to various problems of conflict or restraint. To be able to remain in an optimal space in relation to any external object, in order for my forces to act purely within the dimensions necessary for there fulfillment.
if I want to punch my opponent in stomach, I need to be in a certain space from which only the most direct extension of my body, that final bridging of the space between us, is needed to deliver the force. When one realizes that as long as their was space their was no use for force, then one sees where ones movements become brutal and dumb, becoming clumsy and stiff as you force yourself through space to arrive at your opponent, with what? A body empty of power, incapable of producing a full effect on ones opponent. What is the pure spatial movement? The movement precisely attuned to the needs of the body in space: to cover distance while residing in equilibrium. What is the pure forceful movement? It is a pure delivery, a transmission between two points, it is entirely invisible because the force goes through the object, through the body. When one holds a pole at one end and places the other end on the wall, and then gives a push, where was the force? From your body it passed through the pole to the wall. As long as we are forceful in our treatment of space and spatial in our treatment of force, as long as we are depending on force to govern our movements and depending on movement to generate our force, we will never fully grasp the primary technique of force transmission.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LVfiHbuj1w

In the above video we can see the pure spatial movement with the force passing through the body rather than dictating the movement. The movement is dictated by the need to cover distance while remaining balanced. The force is only "issued".
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Re: space no force, force no space

Postby Yeung on Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:07 pm

The video provided by you is a good example of ballistic contraction (concentric muscle contraction) to maintain balance and this is a method people use to maintain their balance with brute force, as one can see the recoil effect of muscle contraction against movement. I do not see the relevancy of this video to your statement on space and force.
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Re: space no force, force no space

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:04 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwIsAvqgS_I

Here is another video which perhaps serves as a more clear reference to my original post. The efficiency of Chen Xu's techique is due, first of all, to the directness with which he covers the distance and controls the space.
There is, of course, no effect on his opponents stability until the space between them is reduced, at that instant, Chen Xu exerts his force and his opponent must receive that force. Not being able to receive that force and remain stable, Chen Xu's opponent falls to the ground. It is so simple that it remains obscure, this basic reality of force transmission, that is its not necessary to have some very special way to generate force. After all, when the space is gone, Chen Xu is quite directly using his strength to force his opponent down. The question is: How has Chen Xu applied his energy through a division in order to produce such a result. The division, which Chen Xu exemplifies here, is between the movement through space being separate from the exertion of force. He moves in, he assumes position, and then seamlessly but distinctly exerts his force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYnfoNo2Ypw

This division between movement and exertion, between placement and power, embodies the ideal of Chinese martial art. It is a true and universal Yin and Yang, a relationship at once separate and complimentary.
Even if you are using a gun, this division remains, not only remains but becomes all the more clear! As exerting force requires only a pull of the trigger, but from where are you shooting? Where is the barrel pointed? These spatial issues must be solved first, but, if they are solved, then one finger will finish it!
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Re: space no force, force no space

Postby Yeung on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:32 am

Yeung wrote:The video provided by you is a good example of ballistic contraction (concentric muscle contraction) to maintain balance and this is a method people use to maintain their balance with brute force, as one can see the recoil effect of muscle contraction against movement. I do not see the relevancy of this video to your statement on space and force.


Maybe you can compare with the following:

Basic Ballistic Striking Techniques p1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_lV3TUMtos
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Re: space no force, force no space

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:56 pm

After watching the video on systema ballistic striking, I would say that the systema approach is an attempt in conforming to the same physical reality of which I have been speaking; namely, the necessary separation between covering space and using force, but their movement is often exaggerated and thus less effective. In systema they seem to often speak of throwing the hand like a whip. To my understanding, this "whipping" method, only achieves the good of relaxing the limp before the exertion at the last moment. That being said, the motion of throwing the limp like a loose rope is superficial. It can be clearly seen in the footage provided that when the systema man strikes an object he exerts into the object, retaining the mechanical alignment appropriate for such an exertion. Throwing the limp loose is only good for warming up and relaxing the joint. Instructors of more contemporary programs often talk about the stiffness of the traditional approach, the idea of holding tension. Of course it is correct to say we shouldn't hold tension, but the idea that we need to throw our limps around like a loose rope or, even worse, throw our waist and hips around in a loose manner, is a very dangerous error. The true "tradition" of eastern martial art is found in the clear understanding of space and force. Direct balanced movement to cover distance and retain positioning becomes the bases for effective exertion and transmission of force.
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Re: space no force, force no space

Postby Yeung on Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:48 am

Thank you for your confirmation on the systema approach is confirming your physical reality.
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Re: space no force, force no space

Postby RobP3 on Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:48 am

rojcewiczj wrote:After watching the video on systema ballistic striking... their movement is often exaggerated and thus less effective. In systema they seem to often speak of throwing the hand like a whip. To my understanding, this "whipping" method, only achieves the good of relaxing the limp before the exertion at the last moment. That being said, the motion of throwing the limp like a loose rope is superficial.


There's more than one way to strike in Systema. The whip strike is usually the first taught as it helps loosen people up. As for how effective it is, do you speak from direct experience of taking strikes?
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Re: space no force, force no space

Postby rojcewiczj on Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:46 pm

I have received strikes from a systema instructor before. They were very forceful. He kept his arm relaxed until the last moment, in which he exerted strength suddenly. The movement of his arm and the exertion were timed so that, at the same moment his fist contacted me, I was made to receive the force from his exertion. This indeed is the skill, to make movements in such a way that the body retains its ability to exert effectively. My only criticism is towards the cult of "mysterious force" which would suggest that the body makes some particular movement and that it is this movement that generates power. Of course, when there is no space. one must generate force without movement, the muscles must exert to "force" movement. It is my belief that when we stop looking for power in our movement, then our movements will become increasingly efficient as they directly deal with the spatial issues of distance, timing, angle etc. The force will be left to where the force comes from, the exertion of the muscles. Some may say structure is the source of their power, for them I would say, that structure is also a way to describe the spatial concerns that must be addressed prior to exerting. As a martial artist I train my body to address these structural concerns, every aspect of the way a technique is done must become a concrete feature of my body before I exert myself effectively. I do not train my body so that I can make many special moves, but so that, for me, I don't need to move a lot, I just want exert myself and my opponent is effected. Like a gun, training is like making the gun, making sure all the parts work correctly, so in the end you need only point and pull the trigger. I think what is lacking most in the general martial arts culture is this sort of physical training which removes all the spatial variables from ones body, reducing them to one: the aim, the dot, the bite, the sticking. What remains is only to exert, to issue.
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