Sparring in CMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby marvin8 on Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:58 pm

bruised wrote:if we are talking distinctions of sparing in say... MMA vs internal martial arts, consider the following:

sparing is a tool to help practitioners
those in MMA practice how to fight, or how to master the rules of the game.
MMA practitioners practice to better fight and win the game

what does an internal martial artist practice for?
to understand internal energy
how does one spar for internal energy? .
practice to become very sensitive to your (opponent's) energy
this means exaggerating what you feel from your opponent (for the sake and practice of all parties involved).

IMO, the distinctions in MMA vs IMA above are overstated. The MMA "game" can be used to test your ability to handle incoming energy. If your skills are lacking, you may experience serious consequences (e.g., a broken nose, ribs, arm, knocked unconscious, etc.). MMA practice also includes being sensitive to and handling non-compliant incoming forces or "energy."

bruised wrote:i mention this to help explain why CMA sparring looks "FAKE" and why videos of masters teaching students looks so ridiculous. the person receives the blow and instead of blocking the energy, exaggerates it to help become familiar with a version of it within themselves.

"Practice to become very sensitive to your (opponent's) energy" does not require "exaggerating" reactions. You are describing demonstration videos under demonstration rules, not sparring. Do you know of any videos where either the master or any of his students within the lineage are sparring using these internal skills against a non-compliant opponent?

One reason to "practice" a "martial" art is to be able to defend against someone trying to harm you (e.g., punch you in the face). Either you can handle the incoming force (yield, adhere, follow, etc.) or you get punched in the face, whether that be in a MMA ring or outside and whether the fighter is "internal" or "external." As johnwang stated,
johnwang wrote:In sparring, there is no "internal" or external involve but "strategy."

Besides practicing internal body movement and energy, there is fighting strategy. Per Bruce Frantzis, Yang Lu Chan believed strategy is important. Excerpt from Tai Chi for Martial Arts, http://www.energyarts.com/blog/bruce-fr ... rtial-arts:
Bruce Frantzis wrote:Sparring has a hundred times more variables to be handled than Push Hands. Yang Lu Chuan is said to have spend six years learning only the fighting and sparring strategies of tai chi.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Fa Xing on Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:56 pm

bruised wrote:if we are talking distinctions of sparing in say... MMA vs internal martial arts, consider the following:

sparing is a tool to help practitioners
those in MMA practice how to fight, or how to master the rules of the game.
MMA practitioners practice to better fight and win the game

what does an internal martial artist practice for?
to understand internal energy
how does one spar for internal energy? .
practice to become very sensitive to your (opponent's) energy
this means exaggerating what you feel from your opponent (for the sake and practice of all parties involved). i mention this to help explain why CMA sparring looks "FAKE" and why videos of masters teaching students looks so ridiculous. the person receives the blow and instead of blocking the energy, exaggerates it to help become familiar with a version of it within themselves.


Reading this post makes me want to vomit. This is why we can't have nice things.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:48 am

Agreed. This is why many CMA practitioners get punched in real life and die.. Suppose they weren't "internal" enough..

Sorry, Shoebox, as I mentioned I didn't have time to film much of our sparring and I felt awkward about it, honestly, because to showcase this stuff I had to film me beating up my Gongfu brothers.. I'm nothing special, though. All that I do is take those fancy techniques you learned in forms and... *gasp* ...use them.

I don't do Sanda. I do TCMA. They are different. They look different. I'm not saying that there are no overlaps, but it looks fucking different. The techniques are different. The strategies are different. Any teacher that claims to teach CMA should be able to use what he has learned and it shouldn't look like fucking Sanda. It also shouldn't look like a girly tantrum or Tuishou. There is no big secret here.

I've been fighting with boxers recently (until I broke my foot, unfortunately, and my TCMA held up VERY well. I was better than them. Had they have been better boxers I might have had more of a challenge, but then again I am improving all the time as well. It was surprising just how different our strategies were. The techniques are different. DUH!
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:14 pm

There's kind of a rule of diminishing returns when it comes to combat sports and less rules...

See, where serious restrictions like no head shots or light contact, or no wrestling exist the rule-sets can and do encourage a fallacious approach to combat.

However when we look at say the basics jabs, hooks, crosses, round houses, side kicks, hip throws, sweeps, shooting etc... and we look at combat sports with minimal rulesets (MMA, Sanda, Muay Thai etc.) we find that say jabs may differ, but more so because of the individual fighter and the flavor he brings to the arena.

There isn't a major difference between a cross in Sanda and MMA, although MMA has ground. So we can extrapolate that should we remove gloves altogether (and they do in Vale Tudo in Brazil) again no significant change occurs, Eye-pokes and groin shots would be the same. Getting kicked in the inner thigh a few inches from your package is something you tend to defend against in a similar way to protecting your manhood...

And although it's been trashed about a million times.. you all really understand this.

I've video footage of my Sifu fighting in "Chinese Full contact" (pre-sanda) in the 1980 SE Asian (nearly 40 years ago!!!). I've footage of myself in the late 90's-2000's and my students in the 2010's... we have individual flavors, and some are better than others... but my sister probably wouldn't be able to differentiate. (and she's videod quite a few national championships)

In all this long, long, long, long, long, long time, despite what the likes of myself (and others like John Wang who posted above etc.) say, based on lots of international experience of meeting the top masters and their students from everywhere, we have never been offered a single example of "traditional form-like application" being successfully pulled off in any combat sport. (now remember... diminishing returns, and open rules should at least allow for a decent attempt.)
Now please, have the cop on not to mention "Wushu masters" ok! or any other WWE-like BS.

Its the mythological unicorn... and lots of bullshitters like to claim they have discovered it, but of course can't do it, only their purer than snow 100 year old master can, and he's too posh to mosh, so we have only the word of a chancer. A really annoying, repeated like a broken record word... repeat a lie often enough and perhaps they might convince themselves? or whatever psychological malady is at play?

I mean, put up or shut up! I've videos of my Sigung training... nearly 60 years ago... we have that video of the Wu style lad who was executed doing his form and tuishou and apparatus training in the 1930's... so what? So video has been around the Chinese Martial Arts for nearly a century... 100 fucking years lads.. and ZERO evidence of shaw-brother moves working out!!!

Put up or shut up!!!


Sparring:

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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:11 pm

Add me on WeChat (微信) and I can send some very short clips that someone recently look of me. Unfortunately only 30 seconds each and a little dark because it's like 5:00 in the morning in winter. Doesn't look anything like Sanda. 1980s was already heavily influenced by boxing. Like I said, there are overlaps, but if your Gongfu looks like fucking Sanda then TCMA it is not. Good Sanda is not a bad thing, though. Just call it what it is. Sanda with a bit of TCMA flavouring.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Subitai on Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:40 pm

Niall Keane wrote:There's kind of a rule of diminishing returns when it comes to combat sports and less rules...

...Snip...
In all this long, long, long, long, long, long time, despite what the likes of myself (and others like John Wang who posted above etc.) say, based on lots of international experience of meeting the top masters and their students from everywhere, we have never been offered a single example of "traditional form-like application" being successfully pulled off in any combat sport. (now remember... diminishing returns, and open rules should at least allow for a decent attempt.)
...Snip...


This post by Niall has got a bunch of truth to it...I do however question the paragraph above and specifically what I highlighted in bold.

Only because I have to ask...is it some complicated "traditional form-like application" he is looking for?

* Complicated as in MULTI move set up...I'd have to agree Niall.

= But it is Incorrect to expect "traditional form-like application" when it involves many moves for striking.
- In striking simple and direct usually works best

If you are in a format without striking to the head it's easier set up multi move combos. I'm talking specifically about STANDING UP GRAPPLING and or Clinch range up close where striking to the head is not a concern. Then in that case, it's easier to set up more "traditional form-like application".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
** But in the category of "SIMPLE" and solo (striking) taken out of a traditional form... there's enough video evidence of simple and solo traditional moves taken from form-like application, for example mma / sport fights where guys get knocked out or at least stopped in their tracks with:

a basic front kick to the stomach
a double jump front kick to the face
a simple round house to the face

a spinning back fist to the head
an in-curved arm strike...anything from forearm out to the fist (in southern styles called a "Sow Choi" ) to the head

Heck, from my own traditional training I have myself on video (cough 20yrs ago) throwing / using / landing a very traditional striking combo: Right Cross / back-fist to Left reverse punch.

So what I'm basically saying about his comment is Yes and No.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:20 am

My VPN is working today and I just watched the video. I saw Sanda (And that was what the title promised). How does this prove your point at all? I saw some good throws and plenty of powerful kicks, but sloppy punches and ZERO TCMA hand techniques. The bloke that hangs his head low, WTF is he doing? Was there some rule that one was attacking and the other was defending or what? Why would he just hold his hand out there like a limp noodle? The sparring is hard enough and better than what 99% of TCMA practitioners call sparring, but this is not TCMA.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:03 pm

hmmm...
Why would he just hold his hand out there like a limp noodle?


Traditional Tai Chi Seven Star Guard:



in use by )probably) the lad you criticized... (at the time ranked 3 in pro-sanda in Europe PWKA):



In the original clip you have Karl Kidd - multiple Irish Champ and three time UK champ of Kaoshu and Sanda
and Dec Gernon, multiple times Irish and UK champ, Spanish Open Champ, Austrian Open Champ, and finally ranked 2nd in pro-sanda PWKA Europe.

Not exactly hopeless lads? the original clip was early days, about 2007. Even still, there's plenty of traditional technique, maybe not of "your" tradition, but the beauty of the way .... And I dare say, even those early efforts trump 99.99% of what passes for gung fu.

It doesn't suit you to disparage other CMA fighters, especially those who have proven results "outside" their own schools in open competition... not if you want to be taken seriously? As you can see the guard "style" is deliberate and works even if you have no idea of it, or how it works... might have been politer to ask first?

Subitai,
I'm refering to "shaw-brothers theatrics", the big moves the inexperienced expect to find in open combat, because gung fu is just so different to everything else that's just "kickboxing".
Stuff like I've posted above "seven star guard" a traditional tai chi method, is not a million miles away from other world-wide styles of combat, we are not asking to suspend the laws of physics, but it's still unusual, a particular flavor, not an entirely new dish. Sad that its not even recognized here on a CMA board?

Of course it's true traditional flavor bleeding through to a combat sport format, but then again my Sifu and Sigung fought in real documented open competitions back as far as 1956... following the leitai tradition of, well, traditional gung fu.
We never lost the methods war-torn and communist China all but eradicated.

Its good to see more of the traditional martial arts reverse-engineer their methods in search of practical martial value, it's to be expected that the holes will be plugged with western boxing, Japanese wrestling etc... and lamentable that much of the Chinese flavor will be lost, still better a practical method than a performance art.
SO I agree that true traditional technique can still be found, over the years I've seen such flavor from a french team, a Brazilian and Argentinean team, a few schools in the UK (but the UK had it's Hong Kong connection) and fuck all else that isn't bastardized with other methods leaving only the great great grandmother CMA... this side of the Atlantic anyway.

I've seen the odd gobshite try out moves best left in the 1970's Kung FU flicks... it never ends well. You can tell immediately if the coach / master has ever fought himself by the stupidity of the poor student.

edit: above in the sanda comp clip, notice the opponent try to mirror the guard with no fucking idea how it works.. and see what happens!!!
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:43 pm

This only further confirms that you are practising Sanda with a smattering of TCMA stuff. That guard was favoured by my old Sanda instructor and is popular is many TCMA. The difference is that he would sometimes us it to jab as well, so that no one had any funny ideas to try to rush in. These guards are not meant to be used all the time - only for short bursts. Otherwise one becomes predictable. I'm not criticising your Sanda. It looks like good training and is better than 99.9% of TCMA sparring that I have seen, but TCMA it is not. And if you think that TCMA has to be super exaggerated martial dancing then you obviously have never seen real TCMA in use. And it is fairly rare, even in China, so you could be forgiven for your ignorance.

Also, even in the early 1900s CMAs were already heavily influenced by boxing, Karate, Judo, Muay Thai etc. Your argument holds no water. Lastly, it's not JUST kickboxing. Kickboxing, hell even boxing, are extremely effective styles of martial arts and are arguably better in the short term. TCMA and kickboxing are different ways to fight. Both ways work. But they are worlds apart as far as technique and strategy is concerned. This is a TCMA forum, so we are more interested in TCMA.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby marvin8 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:06 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:. . . Kickboxing, hell even boxing, are extremely effective styles of martial arts and are arguably better in the short term. TCMA and kickboxing are different ways to fight. Both ways work. But they are worlds apart as far as technique and strategy is concerned. This is a TCMA forum, so we are more interested in TCMA.

Respectfully, can you describe what TCMA "techniques" and "strategy(s)" are "worlds apart" from high level boxing, MMA, kickboxing, judo, etc.?

Although this is a TCMA forum, IMO the higher level combat sports display some of the TCMA principles, in a hostile environment.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:52 pm

Not really.. If you can't tell the difference between boxing and TCMA then no amount of explaining on my part will help you. Like I said, there is overlap. Some techniques, strategies and principles are shared by all martial arts. In the music world electric guitars and harps share a lot in common. They both make music. Are they the same? Is a flute, a cello, the same? Could someone convince you that saxophone jazz is the same as death metal? Is Elton John the same as AC-DC? Is one objectively better than the other?

Also, nowhere did I mention a difference in "levels" or say that one is more advanced than the other. There are different ways to kick arse. With the same gloves, rule set etc. TCMA should still not look like kickboxing because it's not kickboxing. Especially the hand techniques. Would Eminem say that he is performing classical rock?
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby marvin8 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:45 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Not really..

Well, you said there is a "worlds apart" difference in technique and strategy. So, I thought it was easy for you to explain. I was interested in your experience in China and your views.

MaartenSFS wrote:Also, nowhere did I mention a difference in "levels" or say that one is more advanced than the other. There are different ways to kick arse. With the same gloves, rule set etc. TCMA should still not look like kickboxing because it's not kickboxing.

No, I said that. The more elite (not average) fighters have more strategy, setup and control of their opponents, developed through the right coaching and experience, which are similar to some TCMA fighting principles. The rules and gloves will effect the way the fighters look.

MaartenSFS wrote:Especially the hand techniques.

It would be interesting to know your views and what hand techniques you use. Of course, you don't have to say, if you don't want to. :( :) (You did explain some, in another post. thanks.)

Wang Guan with a Sanda background, from Beijing, has recently signed with the UFC. I enjoy UFC more, as the gloves are fingerless and the rules are more open. His background from, https://www.facebook.com/pg/ChineseWush ... 2157529702:
Birthplace: Liaoning 2001 province champion: Wushu Sanda 2007 / 2008 National Sports League Wushu Sanda champion (70 kg.) 2009 WKA champion: Kickboxing, Multiple times Muay Thai National and Asian champion. MMA: 2012/13 RUFF champion (66kg) Gold belt (Ranik Ultimate Fighting Federation's featherweight champion)

Martial arts trainings started by Wushu Taolu, later the transition to Wushu Sanda. In 2002, at the age of 16, moved to Xian to study under China’s godfather of MMA, Zhao Xue Jun. Since 2006, MMA with UFC debut in June 2017


Published on Feb 27, 2017
UFC has announced the signing of Chinese featherweight “The Dongbei Tiger” Wang Guan (19-1-1) fighting out of Dongbei, China. Wang is considered to be China’s most promising MMA athlete and will likely make his UFC debut at Fight Night Singapore, slated for 17 June at the Singapore Indoor Stadium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeXaJf2RM4

Published on Dec 8, 2016
Wang Guan is fighting December 2nd, 2016 in China for the regional promotion, WLLD.

Wang Guan with a Sanda backgroud, first came to AKA Thailand back in 2014 to help Wang Sai prepare for his fight in the UFC, which was the first fight AKA Thailand ever had. With a record of 15-1 and is considered one of the best MMA fighter to come out of China:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-gdq6kM8QA

Here is an old fight of his.

Published on Sep 5, 2013
RUFF10 66kg Sandro Da Silva VS Wang Guan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr2KzkkSusg
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:28 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Not really.. If you can't tell the difference between boxing and TCMA then no amount of explaining on my part will help you.


Ah, o.k. we're in that territory...

Tell me, has it ever dawned on you that there's more than one TCMA method? And some may even use kicks, punches, and throws that strangely enough, considering people tend to have two arms, two legs etc. all over the world, may look similar to "foreign" styles?

Like, you seem to be an expert on my style... can you fill me in on where Cheng Tin Hung borrowed or trained in any foreign combat sport? Back in 1940's HK? Or tell me how Dan Docherty borrowed from western boxing? (for sure he did a bit of karate, but karate is well... karate) Or myself, I must have taken a few too many knocks to the head to have forgotten all about training in kickboxing?
Now, strangely I can and just did above describe how what manifests in my "style" derives from traditional tai chi methods. That clip of my student has "brush knee twist step", you probably view as sanda seizing kicks, he has "Double seize legs" (inner form between flying oblique and raise hands step up) , you'll probably see "shooting" .. see what I'm getting at?

Efficacious technique probably looks similar and exists in most styles, like two dogs fighting in China probably doesn't look too different to two dogs fighting in the UK.
The purpose of a style is not to deviate into signature techniques of absurdity... but to prepare a fighter to be able to deal with other fighters. Gung Fu is a training method not a performance art! The drills and conditioning have that primary focus - fighting, and strangely enough humans trying to enter for a leg seizing throw in Brazil have the same concerns about receiving strikes or counters as in Ireland. Flavor of course exists, and some is more subtle some overt.

Maybe, just maybe with all the thousands of gung fu styles and sub-styles, one flavor might be Chow Mein and another could be Beijing Duck, but is takes one ignorant bastard to declare the other non-traditional because it lacks his noodles!!!

Only on RSF!

Also, sparring within a school is bullshit when it comes to testing, (and even between schools, sparring is nothing like competition where the sole purpose it to win, not learn, WIN!) look above at what was called sparring with two handicaps adopting specific, I presume "animal methods", i.e. totally contrived unnecessary movements (Lee's "classical mess") and their shit will only ever work against their training partners, i.e. those willing to play by their rules and buy into the fallacy !

Like I said originally, nearly 100 fucking years, lets see the pure and obviously different, in your words - "worlds apart" traditional gung fu at work where the opponent wants to fucking smash it?

Don't tell us, that its an obvious thing, because this very board proves otherwise with the question being asked and never been answered since its inception!

Q.E.fucking D.!!!
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:24 pm

Okay, I'll elaborate. Yes, you use some of the throws from Taiji, many of which are almost universal in TCMA and can also be found in Sanda (the area it seems to borrow the most from TCMA). Where are the hand techniques? I'm talking about trapping (to set up the real strike). I'm talking about whip-like movements, swinging movements. I'm talking about hand techniques and kicking at the same time. I'm talking about a barrage of these coming at them from every conceivable angle. It looks NOTHING like Sanda.

The Sanda fighter came from Wushu Taolu, which we all know is a fucking dance and has nothing to do with fighting. He could have just as well written Tango or Salsa and the result wouldn't be much different, save for the athleticism required. His fight training started when he took up Sanda. Which is great. He can fight.

I studied Sanda full-time for a year and a half when I first came to China. It's a great art. But it's not TCMA, which, though not necessarily better, is what I wanted to learn when I came to China. I dare say that not a single style of TCMA has a set of signature techniques that look anything like kickboxing. Even straight-forward styles like XYQ and Bajiquan have so many techniques that, if used properly, just cannot ever be mistaken for kickboxing.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:49 pm

NK wrote:

Like I said originally, nearly 100 fucking years, lets see the pure and obviously different, in your words - "worlds apart" traditional gung fu at work where the opponent wants to fucking smash it?

Don't tell us, that its an obvious thing, because this very board proves otherwise with the question being asked and never been answered since its inception!


Not really true...
People ask a lot of questions about a lot of things,,,,So?
just means they are still looking or are confused about what they'er looking for.

One of Wong's most popular tales is his return to Guangdong. In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. "Either the challenger was maimed or killed," noted Chin. "He never let one challenger leave his school without injury. He was a master of using the technique of cruelty."

There are four principles for Hop Gar: cruelty, evasion, penetration and interception. When asked about cruelty, Chin stoically quotes the Lama White Crane kung fu classics: "When hunting a tiger, destroy it. Otherwise, a wounded tiger will return to harm you. When weeding a garden, pull up the roots. Otherwise, the weeds will grow back. Whether the lion is hunting an elephant or a rabbit, the lion always uses full force."


David Chin, was one of the teachers who Mike, my teacher also studied under...
Back in the day the style was modified so that one of the instructors could fight in a local full contact venue of the time..
They added boxing hands with hop gar foot work....

I think this accounts for many of the styles being changed to fit into a ring format, in doing so many lose their distinctive flavor.

It was during this time I left feeling the style was being changed in a way I didn't care for...

"To come to that stage isn't easy. Many people come to the first six months, they quit already. Iron palm training to mook jong, blocking, it's not easy. They can only go so far and they just lost interest. For example, we have six different short forms; the techniques of those forms are applications for fighting. They train student to fight. This form alone, they learn for a year.

Other people say, 'Look, I can learn this in a few days.' But to try to perfect it, to make it become part of you - you are the Hop Gar, the Hop Gar is you - that's not easy. It's like it all depends which mask I put on - the Hop Gar David Chin or the tai chi David Chin or the xingyi David Chin. The mask is still David Chin. Too many people rely on technique and secret movements to bail them out. It ends up the secret movement is never there. You have to become natural and react to the situation."


I agree, for most people their style never really reaches the level were it is them its part of them....

Are they really making anything that much different compared to other old styles? Maybe not. Kung fu, after all, is just two hands, two feet and the body. That's it. Different styles specialize on different techniques and usually these people don't pick them up.

They don't know how to use them. For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu. It's the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force. That's what makes it outstanding. I don't say that these new styles are bad kung fu or anything like that. I always say 'Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.'"

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=661

whether one fights in a ring or not, as long as what they do is functional and they understand the confines for which it is,,
I think this is enough
The only one, one has to prove anything to is ones self....who else matters ?
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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