Sparring in CMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Taste of Death on Wed May 10, 2017 1:08 pm

dacheng has posted countless yiquan sparring videos on rsf and most here claim to be familiar with Tim Cartmell's work, which includes videos like "groundprooofing". If you don't know what tcma sparring looks like, you don't do it nor do you care to look for it.

I'm in the park on Sundays. Anyone is welcome. But, as usual, everyone one will come up with some excuse why they can't make it. Two people from rsf and another forum came by recently and they praised our practice online.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Steve James on Wed May 10, 2017 1:24 pm

In NYC, a sifu named Wai Hong began teaching Fu Jow Pai (Tiger Claw school) in the 60s. In China, some got upset and wanted him to stop. So, a challenge was arranged between a representative from the Chinese school and one of Hong's. The guy chosen was Paul Vizzio. Here's the story:
The most well-known of the kung-fu matches was the highly publicized "death match" in 1977 with Lee Man Chin, Grandmaster of The Seven Animals System. Upon arriving in the U.S., Chin issued a challenge to all American martial artists. At the request of the Grandmaster of the Fu Jow Pai system, Ng Wai Hong, Vizzio accepted the challenge. The fight was broadcast on a Chinese radio in New York. Vizzio won by a knockout in 6 seconds. A Chinese language publication that annually named the 10 biggest news events in the Chinese-speaking world, ranked Vizzio's victory number three for the year.

http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/PaulVizzio.htm

Anyway, after the term "kickboxing" was invented and a professional kickboxing (karate) association and league were formed, Paul was a champion in a couple of divisions for over 20 years. Plenty of videos on Youtube. Paul coached the people from Hong's school that fought in the open tournaments we entered.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby everything on Wed May 10, 2017 1:52 pm

it seems like there are only so many formats/rulesets for sparring. styles within certain rulesets may vary. I've probably overclassified them but off the top of my head:

grappling:
- jacket standup only
- jacket standup and ground, emphasis on one or other
- no jacket grappling, no ground, various variations
- no jacket grappling, ground grappling included

striking:
- boxing / hands only vs. elbows
- kickboxing type, knees or no knees
- kickboxing plus throws

mma:
- sambo type
- modern mma, slight variations

if you want to spar with other humans, you should probably pick a variation from each main category or stick to what you like. popularity of style/ruleset will help you by helping you find a greater variety of partners or specialization/range of your interest. this may not be the end all/be all (and I continue to say self defense should be relevant for your mom even if she isn't going to do all of this), but "style" is really about roughly these main categories. if your "style" doesn't help you in these categories, I guess it's for self-defense, culture, health or other non "fighting" things, some of which are good, and some of which most of the board considers self-delusional.
Last edited by everything on Wed May 10, 2017 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby JoeWood on Wed May 10, 2017 2:35 pm

Steve James wrote:In NYC, a sifu named Wai Hong began teaching Fu Jow Pai (Tiger Claw school) in the 60s. In China, some got upset and wanted him to stop. So, a challenge was arranged between a representative from the Chinese school and one of Hong's. The guy chosen was Paul Vizzio. Here's the story:
The most well-known of the kung-fu matches was the highly publicized "death match" in 1977 with Lee Man Chin, Grandmaster of The Seven Animals System. Upon arriving in the U.S., Chin issued a challenge to all American martial artists. At the request of the Grandmaster of the Fu Jow Pai system, Ng Wai Hong, Vizzio accepted the challenge. The fight was broadcast on a Chinese radio in New York. Vizzio won by a knockout in 6 seconds. A Chinese language publication that annually named the 10 biggest news events in the Chinese-speaking world, ranked Vizzio's victory number three for the year.

http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/PaulVizzio.htm

Anyway, after the term "kickboxing" was invented and a professional kickboxing (karate) association and league were formed, Paul was a champion in a couple of divisions for over 20 years. Plenty of videos on Youtube. Paul coached the people from Hong's school that fought in the open tournaments we entered.


Here's one of Paul in Topeka KS beating a fellow from the style/school I come from. My instructor worked the corner of this one. One of our style's pinnacle is doing ringside commentary (Bob Thurman). Paul was a total badass for sure!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTHAPNJoivU

This fight happened a good 10-15 years before my time
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Wed May 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Which strategy do you like better?

1. This clip shows a fight can last for a long time. You attack, I retreat. I attack, you retreat.



2. This clip shows you can end a fight within 7 seconds.

Last edited by johnwang on Wed May 10, 2017 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby wang xiangzhai on Wed May 10, 2017 5:50 pm

Not an expert by any means but here is my take as a fan of both MMA and CMA: I believe we will see a taste of "real CMA fighting" when a talented chinese MMA fighter with a background in CMA - most probably Xingyi - enters the octagon and wins the UFC lightweight belt - and this is, by the sheer force of numbers, bound to happen sooner or later. But it wont be "diferent"(after all, we all have the same body, same muscles, etc), the CMA essence will show in a subtle manner, in the same way one can see the Machida or Wonderboy "are" karatekas.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Wed May 10, 2017 7:15 pm

Here are more 徐晓冬's clips.



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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Steve James on Thu May 11, 2017 1:09 am

Well, if you don't think what Paul was doing to be useful, ok. My point was that we were sparring and competing like that in the 70s, even us taichi people. We weren't the only tcc school either. So, all the talk about tcc reputation is just blah blah to me.

I don't think a guy doing Single Whip or using Kong Jin in an mma match will save anything.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 12, 2017 7:51 am

johnwang wrote:Which strategy do you like better?

1. This clip shows a fight can last for a long time. You attack, I retreat. I attack, you retreat.



2. This clip shows you can end a fight within 7 seconds.


For self defense, #1. In #2 the opponent could have a knife. Or he could be a Shuai Jiao expert. :D If his friends are around, they might kick your head, as your base is gone. There are benefits to fighting in the middle and long range. IMO, it's better to be able to fight in all ranges. The fight starts, before contact is made.

In self defense IMO, it is more important to be cautious, than win the fight, ASAP. Position, control, opportunity, finish is a more conservative approach.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Pavel Macek on Sat May 13, 2017 6:04 am

One of the worst misconception in CMA is that CMA sparring and fighting needs to look different than [add any other art or combat sport].

What works looks surprisingly very similar - and what does not work looks very different.

Any time I hear "but this looks like kickboxing... " I want kick or punch the guy.

We can strive for uniqueness and looking different, or fighting better. I made my choice long time ago.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby windwalker on Sat May 13, 2017 6:23 am

Any time I hear "but this looks like kickboxing... " I want kick or punch the guy.


why, its just an observation that people often note about those who say they practice CMA, that what is trained is often not what is used.
there's a disconnect. Either it works "as trained" and one can use it, or doesn't and never did...

There are what are called trademarks of a system "movements or strategy's" unique to it that make it different from anything else used.

Otherwise why name it? why call it anything?

This was a common complaint in the 70s
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 13, 2017 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby windwalker on Sat May 13, 2017 6:32 am

wang xiangzhai wrote:Not an expert by any means but here is my take as a fan of both MMA and CMA: I believe we will see a taste of "real CMA fighting" when a talented chinese MMA fighter with a background in CMA - most probably Xingyi - enters the octagon and wins the UFC lightweight belt - and this is, by the sheer force of numbers, bound to happen sooner or later. But it wont be "diferent"(after all, we all have the same body, same muscles, etc), the CMA essence will show in a subtle manner, in the same way one can see the Machida or Wonderboy "are" karatekas.


Why look for something outside your self. If one practices CMA whatever style
they should understand the what, why and level of their practice....

Yes it should be different based on the theories and strategies of style used, how could it not be.
Why not a gen. question "be what one, ask others to be"

I think the real question is whether one represents themselves as "fighter" who practices some type of CMA
or as an exponent of CMA style that "fights" a little different...
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 13, 2017 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Steve James on Sat May 13, 2017 7:10 am

Sparring is practice "fighting" or competition. How one spars must simulate and enhance what one will use, or the sparring will be useless. If one is going to fight sanda guys, one's sparring must simulate How one will fight.

Doing form has benefits, but it's not sparring unless one is preparing for a form fight. The same applies to push hands. Sure, one can turn it into a competition; but, it's not preparation for a sanda or mma match. This should be obvious.

If people want to use their form as their (contemporary) fighting method, they have to use their form to spar (practice fight), first with others who do their form, then with practitioners of similar tcma 'forms', and finally with practitioners of contemporary non-tcmas.

Of course, this presumes the desire not to adapt the form to the practice, but the practice to the form. We've yet to see this done. It may not be possible. In terms of self defense, it is unnecessary. But, some will see a value in preserving aspects of the art that are not directly related to fighting.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Pavel Macek on Sat May 13, 2017 10:04 am

windwalker wrote:
Any time I hear "but this looks like kickboxing... " I want kick or punch the guy.


why, its just an observation that people often note about those who say they practice CMA, that what is trained is often not what is used.
there's a disconnect. Either it works "as trained" and one can use it, or doesn't and never did...

There are what are called trademarks of a system "movements or strategy's" unique to it that make it different from anything else used.

Otherwise why name it? why call it anything?

This was a common complaint in the 70s


When I deadlift a heavy barbell, it looks a certain way, always the same, focusing on certain principles, which make it biomechanicaly the strongest way to lift it.

But then there is a real life out there - lifting heavy furniture, boxes, stones, whatever.

Do I use the strength and principles acquired by the ideal barbell deadlift? Of course.

Does it look the same? Hell no. And btw., nobody is pushing me, pulling me, punching me, kicking me, throwing me when I lift the stone.

So why do the TCMA people want to lift a heavy stone exactly like a barbell?
Last edited by Pavel Macek on Sat May 13, 2017 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Sat May 13, 2017 2:08 pm

Your training can be as your fighting. It's your own training. Solo training = partner training without partner.



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