Sparring in CMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby dspyrido on Sat May 13, 2017 3:58 pm

johnwang wrote:If I can

1. grab your leading leg,
2. get you in head lock,
3. put my hand on your throat,
4. block all your punches,
5. block all your kicks,
6. block all your kicks and punches,
7. ...

within 1 minutes, I win that round. Otherwise I lose that round. Compete for 15 rounds. Whoever wins over 8 rounds will be the winner.


Seems more like a conditioining routine as your kicks or punches dont count. How about opening it up to head gear and take downs but use 4oz gloves? Any takedown can now score and both sides get to throw punches and kicks. Maybe include body and shin protectors if its sparring to help develop conditioning more carefully.

One thing I think missing in a lot of sparring is feedback. Do you include a ref/judge/coach to keep things in control, explain what happened when someone misses they got hit or take dow and also to make recommendations along?
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Sat May 13, 2017 5:30 pm

dspyrido wrote:How about opening it up to head gear and take downs but use 4oz gloves? Any takedown can now score and both sides get to throw punches and kicks.

If you force your student to use just 1 technique for 6 months (or 1 year). He will be good at that single technique for the rest of his life. If you let him to use anything he wants to use, he may never develop any new skill. If you don't want to teach your students, you teach them 20 techniques in one day and never review it. If you tie a right hand person's right arm behind him, you may have chance to turn him into a right hand person.
Last edited by johnwang on Sat May 13, 2017 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8064
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby dspyrido on Sat May 13, 2017 6:09 pm

johnwang wrote:
If you force your student to use just 1 technique for 6 months (or 1 year). He will be good at that single technique for the rest of his life. If you let him to use anything he wants to use, he may never develop any new skill. If you don't want to teach your students, you teach them 20 techniques in one day and never review it. If you tie a right hand person's right arm behind him, you may have chance to turn him into a right hand person.


I understand but to qualify what you're saying is in the beginning ... You must get this finishing move right.

Then it goes to - now you have to know how to set it up.

Then it's how to set it up without risking yourself.

I know you call this the entering strategy but it all relates to grappling finishes.

So how is this going to help someone learn to finish with strikes?

This is where the more open rules come into play because different people have different preferences in combat and learn to try to play to their strengths. But you're right - throwing someone new into open ended formats is futile.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby windwalker on Sat May 13, 2017 7:40 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J371nWuadTs

examples of movement that map directly to usage as practiced.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 13, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5805
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Fatal Rose on Sun May 21, 2017 6:53 am

windwalker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J371nWuadTs

examples of movement that map directly to usage as practiced.

Awesome stuff!!!
Image
User avatar
Fatal Rose
Santi
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:31 am

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Mon May 22, 2017 1:47 am

Fatal Rose wrote:
windwalker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J371nWuadTs

examples of movement that map directly to usage as practiced.

Awesome stuff!!!



;D ;D

I think Windy is having a laugh...

the clip is of David Ross's classes and students...

Already on this very thread one of his articles has been linked to.. and it doesn't speak well for those concerned with the "traditional-looking" expression of technique in combat.

David also was the organiser for New York's "King of Sanda" competition.

Sure he is here demonstrating how traditional technique maps "directly" onto application, as I've done myself many times in demos... (DEMOS)

But, I'm fairly confident that should those looking for the unicorn of TCMA sparring that is unlike anything else, bar a Shaw-brothers production, will be disappointed at the "Just kickboxing" expressed by David's and my own students in full contact competition. Those with eyes to see will notice the flavor and the traditional techniques being applied, but such people probably therefore don't belong to the "TCMA looks utterly different in application" brigade.

12 pages in and still no sign of the unicorn??? PLUS... let us not forget that this question has gone viral with the Xu V Tai chi "master" 10 second, one sided "fight" (execution)... so let's be honest probably a good 90% of the TCMA boys have had it stuck to them by now online via social media... and yet the tumbleweed tumbles and zero footage, on a planet of 8 billion people, has surfaced of a unicorn in action...

I know its hard to leave a pyramid scheme, the hope to stick it out and recover the loss persists, irrational as such is. It's a terrible plight to insulate oneself from reality and pretend one "has found it", knowing, at least subconsciously, that "it" hasn't been objectively tested among combat "peers" ( I don't mean the other cripples). A real tension must exist in the mind, when deep down one knows the "steak ain't real", as comfortable as it is to swallow the blue pill?
Last edited by Niall Keane on Mon May 22, 2017 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Pavel Macek on Mon May 22, 2017 7:29 am

Note: One of the old idioms for martial arts was Quan Jiao 拳腳 (in Cantonese Kyun Geuk), i.e. "boxkick". I will leave it just there...
Pavel Macek

Practical Hung Kyun | http://www.practicalhungkyun.com
SIMPLEXSTRONG | http://www.simplexstrong.com
Pavel Macek
Mingjing
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby yeniseri on Mon May 22, 2017 10:33 am

windwalker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J371nWuadTs

examples of movement that map directly to usage as practiced.


Interestingly, I see elements of [the] [shuai]jiao element in the function and utility of Lama Pai. Use and application is same if you were taught basic concepts.

Thanks windwalker
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby windwalker on Mon May 22, 2017 2:50 pm

quote="yeniseri"]
Interestingly, I see elements of [the] [shuai]jiao element in the function and utility of Lama Pai. Use and application is same if you were taught basic concepts.
Thanks windwalker


This was the first CMA I was introduced to as a young teenager. The questions being asked now were also asked then. CMA had some major fails with Thai boxers in Thailand at the time. In the city it was often questioned because usage never seemed to reflect training.

Mike, my teacher was very aware of things being functional. The gym was really more like a boxing gym. We trained as fighters.

Hop Gar is kind of unique as among CMA styles as it bypassed blocking and what is called bridging.

This started to change IMO when Mike,an innovator in his time started to introduce boxing hands allowing one of the teachers to fight in a local full contact venue of the day. In feeling the system was being changed in a direction I was not interested in I left.
In looking at the clips it would seem that teacher David Chin, one of Mike's teachers continued with the modifications.



to be clear, I have always said that what ever is practiced should be functional. There is no "look" or "looking" like. what is seen, used, is simply a matter of training. The CMA teachers I knew then and and some I know now, some adapted for the contest of the time. In doing so IMO many lost the tenets of their systems usage creating a situation were it was trained one way and used another.
This may or may not be important for some. For me it was a major issue one that I would come across in my own journey
in other CMA gyms...when I found this to be evident in the practice I left, eventually finding my own answers.


I am less bothered by some calming they practice and use x style and getting wiped out, then by those who use completely different methods and training
in usage from what they claim to represent.

The former can be examined and corrected the latter can not as its never used. Why bother naming it "x or y" if it does not reflect it.

Many seem to ask, how does one know if it works looking for examples of it doing so.
They look outside of themselves complaining in this day and age of Utube of not being able to find it.

I would suggest looking at ones self, the answers can be found there.

note:
Do not claim to speak for or represent Hop Gar style nor its current teachers or students.
I do have an interest in it as it was part of my own development and thinking among other styles and teachers.
Just sharing some thoughts.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 22, 2017 5:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5805
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon May 22, 2017 4:50 pm

Niall Keane wrote:
Fatal Rose wrote:
windwalker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J371nWuadTs

examples of movement that map directly to usage as practiced.

Awesome stuff!!!



;D ;D

I think Windy is having a laugh...

the clip is of David Ross's classes and students...

Already on this very thread one of his articles has been linked to.. and it doesn't speak well for those concerned with the "traditional-looking" expression of technique in combat.

David also was the organiser for New York's "King of Sanda" competition.

Sure he is here demonstrating how traditional technique maps "directly" onto application, as I've done myself many times in demos... (DEMOS)

But, I'm fairly confident that should those looking for the unicorn of TCMA sparring that is unlike anything else, bar a Shaw-brothers production, will be disappointed at the "Just kickboxing" expressed by David's and my own students in full contact competition. Those with eyes to see will notice the flavor and the traditional techniques being applied, but such people probably therefore don't belong to the "TCMA looks utterly different in application" brigade.

12 pages in and still no sign of the unicorn??? PLUS... let us not forget that this question has gone viral with the Xu V Tai chi "master" 10 second, one sided "fight" (execution)... so let's be honest probably a good 90% of the TCMA boys have had it stuck to them by now online via social media... and yet the tumbleweed tumbles and zero footage, on a planet of 8 billion people, has surfaced of a unicorn in action...

I know its hard to leave a pyramid scheme, the hope to stick it out and recover the loss persists, irrational as such is. It's a terrible plight to insulate oneself from reality and pretend one "has found it", knowing, at least subconsciously, that "it" hasn't been objectively tested among combat "peers" ( I don't mean the other cripples). A real tension must exist in the mind, when deep down one knows the "steak ain't real", as comfortable as it is to swallow the blue pill?

Evidence was offered and you chose to ignore it. I suppose it's easier to continue believing that TCMA was always kickboxing than to have to admit to yourself that only the grappling part of your art survived to present day and the holes were plugged up with kickboxing. But, whatever. If that works for you, so be it. Just don't claim that what YOU do is what everyone else does or should be doing and continue to act like an ignorant, arrogant fool.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Niall Keane on Mon May 22, 2017 6:13 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Evidence was offered and you chose to ignore it. I suppose it's easier to continue believing that TCMA was always kickboxing than to have to admit to yourself that only the grappling part of your art survived to present day and the holes were plugged up with kickboxing. But, whatever. If that works for you, so be it. Just don't claim that what YOU do is what everyone else does or should be doing and continue to act like an ignorant, arrogant fool.


Now just hold on pal, you disparaged my system, you gave a truly ignorant opinion about it, as though you are some god almighty authority on traditional CMAs. I've a solid lineage with the main fighters and notables in TCC going back to Lu chan and beyond.... Theres a "zhen chuan" there!!! all I've ever practiced is TCC, but you know better about it all? Sadly you believe that!

You're presenting some recent innovation hybrid art, as your own, fair enough, but your art's respectability seems to hang upon how your master was a notable fighter. But who did he fight? (Mainland China, nothing happened there between 1940-80, the place was a mess, war and oppression, no room for the luxury of combat sports)... You say you've seen him spar? and being honest, your description sounds as fanciful as that book about daoist swords masters on hua shan and 2000 levels of achievement... and and you've said that you spar boxers, but these aren't boxers training out of a gym producing national or even regional champs, and you were called out on that, these are boxercise awl-lads in the fcukin park!!! They're fcukin bums!!! Bums!!!

On the other hand this was my Sifu Dan Docherty in 1980, and his Cheng Tin hung in 1956:


That's Dan against Roy Pink of Five Ancestors on the way to winning the 1980 SE Asian

Image
That's Cheng Tin hung after defeating three time Taiwan champ Yu Wen Tung in 1956

You claim that you offered evidence?
No, you asked me to get an app to view you sparring a classmate. But I've seen you spar, and really I don't place much faith in in-school "traditional" sparring, because ridiculous rulesets can have influence as does class / style culture upon fighting, so if you guys are all about seizing etc. , of course I'd expect to see you fixated upon it, if you neglect a guard, well your mutual sickness will even out the handicap.... In other words it does not translate as a valid method under pressure from those not so fixated... I want to see the gobshite who tries to walk around with his hands by his sides, with no guard, as these traditional clowns do, only moving their arms after the fact, I want to see them under pressure and still maintain anything they consider "traditional".

Because every time we do witness the "classical mess", we get the Xu Xiaodong situation...

You have some fcukin nerve with this statement:
Just don't claim that what YOU do is what everyone else does

Given it was you who pronounced my expression and that of my students as non-traditional and merely kickboxing. I'm also quite certain the vast majority of Traditional CMA practitioners do nothing resembling what I do, as what I do is effective. However, although myself and the other "sanda" lads on here could easily tell who trained which "kick boxer" among our schools, as we recognise the flavours, the subtle flavours, the detail we fighters have trained and experienced enough to understand, I know full well that people like your self are inexperienced and totally blind to the stylistic signatures. See fighters are on that thousandth of an inch level, you inexperienced fantasy lads are still struggling with the feet...

Perhaps before you left the Netherlands you should have tried out the Vos Gym, or the Hoyer Institute if you like CMA... a bit of realism would have helped counter the fantasy.

Unicorns don't exist!

AND STILL NO EVIDENCE!!!!
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon May 22, 2017 8:43 pm

I'd like to correct some "points" you made:

1) I did not disparage your system. I merely stated that the student in one of the videos you posted wasn't displaying traditional hand techniques. I even said the throws looked good. I then went on to say that I didn't see any Taijiquan in the second clip (specifically the striking). I saw Sanda. Since it was Sanda, that hardly seems like an insult. It seems like you're a little butt-hurt over nothing.

2) Since you claim that "traditional mess" is impractical in fighting and are one of the "Sanda lads" and your videos don't show any, you are basically admitting that you aren't using TCMA. So why not just say that you are doing kickboxing with Taiji grappling? It obviously works. Is that such a bad thing?

3) The video I offered was between me and someone I'd never met before and certainly not in my school. It was under boxing rules, which is fine, because TCMA can be used under any ruleset (perhaps barring BJJ, though I'm not expert on their rules). I'm not saying that it's the be-all-end-all TCMA sparring video, but it's crystal clear that it isn't kickboxing. Without at least watching it you just don't have a leg to stand on in this "argument" and are looking more and more like an arrogant person with an agenda.

4) Again you make assumptions that because that fraud claiming to be a Taiji master stood there with his arms up like a tree that that is what all TCMA people do.. If you just want to bash TCMA, why are you even on this forum? Oh, right, it's so that you can further your agenda.. You'd fit right in on Bullshido.

5) Hybrid or not, my master's system is 100% TCMA. Sure, he's not famous, but he's been in a lot of street fights in his life and has the scars to prove it. He's happy to spar with anyone that I've seen come up to him. He was also an army combatives instructor. I'm sorry that that isn't legitimate enough for you. You're right. Only competition records matter. Because martial arts are about sportive competition..

6) The sparring video you saw is years old already. I've improved significantly in that time, as I hope anyone training hard would. If you don't want to watch my video, fine, but don't claim that no evidence has been presented.

7) I have fucking nerve??? You state that all TCMA looks like kickboxing and refuse to acknowledge any footage that isn't in a competition format, that it's all a "classical mess".. Do you really think that people living in a country where not too long ago masters were persecuted or even killed for knowing and teaching martial arts are going to stick their necks out so you can have evidence of something that you already claim to know???

8) My Sanda coach was a Sanda, boxing and wrestling champion. I was impressed with his skill. I was more impressed by some TCMA masters that I met that had never fought in any competitions, but sparred all the time. When my master was younger his master would lock the door to his home and beat his arse until lunch time, making sure not to injure him permanently each time so he could come back for the next lesson. My training hasn't been nearly as tough, but I continue to test myself against various opponents and make incremental progress on my journey and could care less about any fucking competitions. Not every boxer has to be Ali and not every TCMA practitioner has to be Yang Luchan. It doesn't change what he/she is training.

9) Anyways, you're not going to change your mind regardless of what I post or any videos I provide, so my argument with you ends right here. I've wasted enough time trying to beat a dead horse. Good luck with your training..

That is all...

Edit: I can't see fuck all in that video you posted. Too small. Good for you, though.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Mon May 22, 2017 9:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon May 22, 2017 9:16 pm

Have any of you ever thought that it was strange that when Chen Ziqiang and Wang Zhanjun fought those blokes on Wulin Dahui it looked all traditional, but when Chengjiagou brought in those Thai "champions" to fight it suddenly became Sanda? My original thought was that that way if they lost they could say that they didn't want to reveal their secrets and if they won then it didn't matter and they still didn't reveal their secrets, but didn't lose face. I have an additional theory now.. Earlier, they didn't have that much to lose. They were young and it was their parents generation that were the real stars of Chenjiagou, but now the mantle has shifted to them. Also, the popularity of the place exploded and I imagine that they are running a lucrative business nowadays. So they simple can't afford to lose face - hence going the Sanda route. Also, Sanda takes less time to learn and it will better prepare students to transition into Sanda tournaments.

Oh, almost forgot to mention that those Wulin Dahui fights were really only advertisements for Chenjiagou and specifically Chen Ziqiang and Wang Zhanjun. Their opponents were outclassed and it showed and I don't like that the face isn't a target, but it still doesn't change the fact that that is what actual TCMA looks like, though.

Here's a reminder: http://baidu.ku6.com/watch/771979524045 ... oMultiNeed
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Mon May 22, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby cloudz on Tue May 23, 2017 4:19 am

That Wulin stuff is worked though isn't it. It's a part of what some of us have been trying to say.. under certain conducive conditions and environments (relativity at work) better stylistic interpretations of classical arts can be acheived. These are friendly matches with agreement and practice designed to make the product attractive and true to form. Add in real striking with a genuine competitive attitude (rather than an agenda to look good for the show) and it will look more or less just like 'Kung Fu Sanda'.

I have used similar sparring formats with my training pals, it really isn't that hard to be all kung fu looking under easier conditions.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue May 23, 2017 4:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Tue May 23, 2017 5:34 am

I think that the matches are fixed in that they choose opponents whose skill levels aren't in the same league (or planet).

Anyways, I'm going to make some videos with my student in the next several weeks that show effective traditional techniques that cannot be "Sanda-fied". I know that you won't be satisfied because it won't be in a pro-level competition, but it will be against a fully resisting opponent. He will wear a headguard and gloves and I'll just wear gloves. That should give him the extra courage he needs to let me have it.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1552
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: johnwang and 1 guest