Sparring in CMA

[cloudz]

A simple no would have been even kinder.
But thanks for trying Steve.

I'm specifically looking for someone who has researched the history of competitive empty hand (dueling) fighting in China.
A single academic work or paper.
Chinese wrestling excluded.
If it doesn't exist maybe that in itself is a good suggestion towards any organized consistent competition and its history being next to non existent until modern times. maybe.

[cloudz]

All I said is those videos don't represent TCMA.

Says you dick head. Maybe not your TCMA, but they represent Nialls in that format under those conditions. If you can't be respectful of that, regardless of how you ultimately judge it in private then you are an ignorant dick head asking for a problem.

Sorry

I also never said that it should look like TCMA for styles' sake. It can't look the same because the techniques and strategies are different. Looking different is an effect, not the cause.. And, if it's my statement that the hand techniques looked sloppy, it's because they were. I also said the throws looked good. I wasn't being unfair or talking shit.

When you have a trained fighter competitvely trying to rip your head off it equalises a lot of this shit down to looking similar - because of pragmatism and the respective levels.

You can't prove your ideal/ alternative works at competitive levels because you are not tested against real fighters of your weight class. The fact that you consistently beleive it is otherwise tells me you have not been on the business end of a decent same size or bigger trained fighter not doing you any favours.

Is this some kind of tag team? Niall got tired so you jump in? Why haven't either of you added me on WeChat and had a look?

No bollocks.. I'm not his best mate, best fan or anything like that, we've had the odd heated discussion ourselves. I went through this with you before and I actually afforded you some benefit of the doubt. It's more to do with the recent tai chi vs. MMA video and discussions going on that I feel I want to talk about this stuff again. I can give my opinion on what I saw from you and your general attitude to certain things, otherwise don't put it out there and then make 100 excuses.

Nothing else has been forthcoming on here clip wise. You are not good enough or special enough for me to add you to anything, I don't have the app and am not interested in getting it. You think you're the only person who can look good in conducive conditions. Yea I bet your masters are brilliant at that. Try some real pressure if you know what that is, and let's fucking see it. That affords you the right to say anything you like in my book.

Why do you claim to do TCMA and talk shit about China and TCMA and people that have devoted many, many years of their lives to slum it here and try to learn these arts in the country they came from? Have either of you been to China? Lived here? It's not a goddamn picnic.

Yea whatever. I try to talk to you sincerely thinking you might not get defensive and emotional but it's too much to ask, I should know better for sure.

Every time I take a challenge in a park I am putting myself at risk. No referees. A foreigner in a very xenophobic country. Don't scoff at my non-competition training. It has worked for me and isn't any less TCMA than someone that fights in competitions. Go to a boxing gym and a champion and an amateur will both look like they are training and sparring boxing because boxing looks like fucking boxing and there is no mistaking it.

The levels are miles apart so stop being condescending. We've seen what pure Chinese TCMA guys are capable of against fighters.
The level is an embarrassment. But don't mistake that evidence based opinion for some blanket opinion on all and sundry.
That's where you start to create a strawman. I know there's gems in all KF, but that includes a level of humility and appreciation you sadly lack.

Yet, not one is yet capable to support any idea that the training and its end product is comparible in effectiveness to what any combat sport fighters can do in any given format and remain largely as practiced in conducive conditions and environments. Come on Why doesn't one of the many great masters you have lauded here (TCC and others) fight a guy and save us all embarrassment and arguments on how KF 'should' look? You're the one making claims about looks, onus on you or shut up. Will anyone real from over ever step up and end all this bollocks please, then we can all know the real TCMA. Maybe there's one or two left you didn't change your mind about.

So keep in mind you might still change your mind about a lot of this down the road.

Anyways, I've said enough to both of you. I've provided evidence and you both ignore it. Your agenda is clear. TCMA are dead in China and you are all that is left. Good for you.

Ha ha I didn't say that but good for you LOL. My agenda?

Come on man. Your whole narrative for ages has been crystal. I don't need to convince others about how you've talked, and I reckon you don't need reminding of all the charlie big bollocks you have spouted around here. When you get to the West maybe I will come and learn the real shit from you.

happy training.

[Taste of Death]

All I said is those videos don't represent TCMA.

Says you dick head. Maybe not your TCMA, but they represent Nialls in that format under those conditions. If you can't be respectful of that, regardless of how you ultimately judge it in private then you are an ignorant dick head asking for a problem.

Is TOD as awesome in real life as he is online ?

Still awesome. Looks like you could use a hug. Or some pad work.

[MaartenSFS]

All I said is those videos don't represent TCMA.

Says you dick head. Maybe not your TCMA, but they represent Nialls in that format under those conditions. If you can't be respectful of that, regardless of how you ultimately judge it in private then you are an ignorant dick head asking for a problem.

Sorry

I also never said that it should look like TCMA for styles' sake. It can't look the same because the techniques and strategies are different. Looking different is an effect, not the cause.. And, if it's my statement that the hand techniques looked sloppy, it's because they were. I also said the throws looked good. I wasn't being unfair or talking shit.

When you have a trained fighter competitvely trying to rip your head off it equalises a lot of this shit down to looking similar - because of pragmatism and the respective levels.

You can't prove your ideal/ alternative works at competitive levels because you are not tested against real fighters of your weight class. The fact that you consistently beleive it is otherwise tells me you have not been on the business end of a decent same size or bigger trained fighter not doing you any favours.

Is this some kind of tag team? Niall got tired so you jump in? Why haven't either of you added me on WeChat and had a look?

No bollocks.. I'm not his best mate, best fan or anything like that, we've had the odd heated discussion ourselves. I went through this with you before and I actually afforded you some benefit of the doubt. It's more to do with the recent tai chi vs. MMA video and discussions going on that I feel I want to talk about this stuff again. I can give my opinion on what I saw from you and your general attitude to certain things, otherwise don't put it out there and then make 100 excuses.

Nothing else has been forthcoming on here clip wise. You are not good enough or special enough for me to add you to anything, I don't have the app and am not interested in getting it. You think you're the only person who can look good in conducive conditions. Yea I bet your masters are brilliant at that. Try some real pressure if you know what that is, and let's fucking see it. That affords you the right to say anything you like in my book.

Why do you claim to do TCMA and talk shit about China and TCMA and people that have devoted many, many years of their lives to slum it here and try to learn these arts in the country they came from? Have either of you been to China? Lived here? It's not a goddamn picnic.

Yea whatever. I try to talk to you sincerely thinking you might not get defensive and emotional but it's too much to ask, I should know better for sure.

Every time I take a challenge in a park I am putting myself at risk. No referees. A foreigner in a very xenophobic country. Don't scoff at my non-competition training. It has worked for me and isn't any less TCMA than someone that fights in competitions. Go to a boxing gym and a champion and an amateur will both look like they are training and sparring boxing because boxing looks like fucking boxing and there is no mistaking it.

The levels are miles apart so stop being condescending. We've seen what pure Chinese TCMA guys are capable of against fighters.
The level is an embarrassment. But don't mistake that evidence based opinion for some blanket opinion on all and sundry.
That's where you start to create a strawman. I know there's gems in all KF, but that includes a level of humility and appreciation you sadly lack.

Yet, not one is yet capable to support any idea that the training and its end product is comparible in effectiveness to what any combat sport fighters can do in any given format and remain largely as practiced in conducive conditions and environments. Come on Why doesn't one of the many great masters you have lauded here (TCC and others) fight a guy and save us all embarrassment and arguments on how KF 'should' look? You're the one making claims about looks, onus on you or shut up. Will anyone real from over ever step up and end all this bollocks please, then we can all know the real TCMA. Maybe there's one or two left you didn't change your mind about.

So keep in mind you might still change your mind about a lot of this down the road.

Anyways, I've said enough to both of you. I've provided evidence and you both ignore it. Your agenda is clear. TCMA are dead in China and you are all that is left. Good for you.

Ha ha I didn't say that but good for you LOL. My agenda?

Come on man. Your whole narrative for ages has been crystal. I don't need to convince others about how you've talked, and I reckon you don't need reminding of all the charlie big bollocks you have spouted around here. When you get to the West maybe I will come and learn the real shit from you.

happy training.

You and Niall are the condescending ones for suggesting that only competition videos can be legitimate proof of TCMA. Not everyone has access to or cares about competition. How am I being condescending when I am defending my viewpoint and you say that I am not even worth adding? Seriously?? WTF. You ask for evidence and then tell me off without looking at it? Call me a "dickhead"? That's the best that you could come up with. Pathetic.

You don't fucking know me. I really can't understand why you would think that I am condescending. Everyone goes on about there being no sparring videos for TCMA and that TCMA is dead. It's not dead for me. I fucking learned it right here in China. Took me SEVEN years to find it. But because I don't compete it's not legitimate. Go do MMA then.

[Trick]

I don't know, i'm probably mistaken but it seem that some here very much promote kickboxing/MMA,and the promotors are TJQ practitioners but competed successfully in kickboxing/MMA format. Would you say that by practicing your TJQ forms it gives you an advantage/edge over kickboxing"purists" & MMA fighters ? If so are you on Kickboxing/MMA forums promoting as heavily the practice of TJQ as you here promote Kickboxing?

[Yuen-Ming]

Niall, you make some fair points, but also confirm your ignorance of important aspects of TCMA. You're right, I have improved much since that video was taken, but remember that I injured the other hand and was effectively fighting his two hands with one and had to switch to an unorthodox stance (since I use the lead hand most of the time). He may look smaller than me, but, like me, he trained his arse off and hit hard.

The swinging techniques are very effective. Remember that there are entire arts based around it like Tongbiquan and Piguazhang. I have trained these techniques for years and my swings are devastating because of the penetration, which cause internal damage. No one in their right mind would try to block those. I can also change angles or directions if someone tries to evade them (which I'm counting on) or switch to another technique. Nowadays I cover better and have better follow-ups, but fuck me if I don't still use them to lead in sometimes (I have a lot of other techniques in my bag as well).

YM

[Niall Keane]

I don't know, i'm probably mistaken but it seem that some here very much promote kickboxing/MMA,and the promotors are TJQ practitioners but competed successfully in kickboxing/MMA format. Would you say that by practicing your TJQ forms it gives you an advantage/edge over kickboxing"purists" & MMA fighters ? If so are you on Kickboxing/MMA forums promoting as heavily the practice of TJQ as you here promote Kickboxing?

You are coming at this from the wrong perspective.

First sanda is a recent "format" based upon traditional leitai and is basically China's mma.

Both mma and sanda were originally designed as a platform for ALL martial arts to compete and develop as safely as possible in a format with as little restrictions as possible in order to promote "fairness" in such competitions.

Subsequently in both formats sanda and mma gyms (gyms with the sole purpose of competing under such formats) began to appear. The fact that training for such competions (broad scope of technique - kick punch throw... allowed them to enter as they do other formats and so at this stage almost become a style in them selves. The style of traning being to mix and match from different martial arts sources.


NOW....

The existence of "pure" mma or sanda gyms does not preclude the traditional styles from competing. Such styles will need to train a broad scope of technique... punching kicking throwing etc. (Many styles do not... even General Qi wrote about this issue).

So my style, my traditional style does not serve to make me an invincible warrior for who with a blast of chi can conquer all contemporary sanda and mma "stylists"; it I simply broad enough in its training methods and drills to allow me to compete successfully in such open formats.

Strangely enough , given the tradition of leitai fighting in TCMA it would seem that a broad set of technique and competing is a characteristic of the traditional... most "founders" having done such.

Now my style being TCC is supposedly one of the most popular traditional styles. My lineage encompasses the "acknowleded " best fighters... the lads whos exploits are written about and documented... not obsecure sages we are required to "have faith in" regarding combat skill.
So if what I do isn't accepted as traditional nor tai chi chuan then frankly neither exist! (I have never trained in another style.)

The Zhen Chuan and the training methods extend way beyond the limited tuishou and hand form that make up tai chi boxercise, and thats the whole issue.
most people cannot get past the fact that they were sold a pup, or someone in their lineage was, and as that pup will never be a tiger they make up shit about tcc requiring external style base or it being designed in such a way that it's lethal but cannot handle the kick punch throw of competition .

They congeal with other tufu Chuan lads to block any external empirical evidence from infecting their nice cozy delusion.

And that's grand, cloudz is happy for them, live and let live, cloudz is sounder than me. See I see them as creating a culture of deception, deception that wastes decades of peoples lives selling them the easier option, and ultimately destroys the perception of TCMA as a viable set of combat systems (as we see in the mma v tcc video) and so leads to the young lad considering martial arts (to learn to fight rather than to pose) to steer away from CMA.

It's a contaminant that will ultimtely kill the baby in the bath water until all that is left is the poison!

[cloudz]

You and Niall are the condescending ones for suggesting that only competition videos can be legitimate proof of TCMA.

I dispute that, and I'm up for having a civil discussion about things. What irks me is you not being cognizant of being insulting to someone who deserves better.
I'm not here to fight other peoples battles, but I'm just the kind of person who reacts to things like that. I have trained breifly (1-2 years on and off) in that line and know folks from it from London and Oxford so when you say what you say I can recognise an insult when I hear it to someone who has invested years of time and effort.

Not everyone has access to or cares about competition. How am I being condescending when I am defending my viewpoint and you say that I am not even worth adding? Seriously?? WTF. You ask for evidence and then tell me off without looking at it? Call me a "dickhead"? That's the best that you could come up with. Pathetic.

See above. You insult what he does, it's history and roots but you know because you have a viewpoint it doesn't matter? I don't know what world you think this is where you insult someone and think you don't deserve to get an abrasive reaction for it. It's only about the insult you make that I have a problem with. I have actually got time & appreciation for some of what you say and your position and I already talked about a grey area. So no why do you make out I see this as balck and white. Far from it actually. If anything I see your stance as more black and white. By stating something is definitively "not TCMA" that is a black and white statement. That's from you buddy, so get over it if people don't agree or like what you say. But here's a tip for you, it's how you say things and what you don't say that sometimes mean much more..

You don't fucking know me. I really can't understand why you would think that I am condescending. Everyone goes on about there being no sparring videos for TCMA and that TCMA is dead. It's not dead for me. I fucking learned it right here in China. Took me SEVEN years to find it. But because I don't compete it's not legitimate. Go do MMA then.

Chill out, and let's keep talking.

I made a post in the other thread regard the mma vs. tai chi clip. Not sure if I have anything to add right now, but I mentioned something you said about strategy and tactics in that post and i think it's valid. It was the main point you made yesterday about what makes TCMA exactly that. I think that's HIGHLY questionable. And i think i could tear it down without too much effort, byt you know being the lazy boy in school I'll let it stew out there for a bit.

[cloudz]

And that's grand, cloudz is happy for them, live and let live, cloudz is sounder than me. See I see them as creating a culture of deception, deception that wastes decades of peoples lives selling them the easier option, and ultimately destroys the perception of TCMA as a viable set of combat systems (as we see in the mma v tcc video) and so leads to the young lad considering martial arts (to learn to fight rather than to pose) to steer away from CMA.

It's a contaminant that will ultimtely kill the baby in the bath water until all that is left is the poison!

I blow hot and cold. Sometimes I lose my shit and go FULL DANNY DYER MODE. I'm not like you in being a teacher as yet, but it's something I think I want, one day. And yes when I see that silly shit in China getting into the Daily Mail online I wonder who the hell will take a predominantly tai chi guy seriously who thinks he might teach them some martial arts. It makes things a little tricky to say the least.

I feel like that Samual Jackson monologue from pulp fiction at times, you know the one about the sheep and sheperd and trying to walk some middle road. Oh whetever, I like losing my shit sometimes

Only you do it so much better lol.

[Niall Keane]

I feel like that Samual Jackson monologue from pulp fiction at times, you know the one about the sheep and sheperd and trying to walk some middle road. Oh whetever, I like losing my shit sometimes

"Well, that seems to be the situation. But I don't want that. And you don't want that. And MaatenSFS here *definitely* doesn't want that."

;-)

[Fatal Rose]

Why can't fellow TCMA enthusiast meet up and come up with a proper sparring format? I'm in Shijiazhuang Hebei if anyone is near me.

[johnwang]

Why can't fellow TCMA enthusiast meet up and come up with a proper sparring format? I'm in Shijiazhuang Hebei if anyone is near me.

I have suggested the "sparring format" in RSF before.

If I can

1. grab your leading leg,
2. get you in head lock,
3. put my hand on your throat,
4. block all your punches,
5. block all your kicks,
6. block all your kicks and punches,
7. ...

within 1 minutes, I win that round. Otherwise I lose that round. Compete for 15 rounds. Whoever wins over 8 rounds will be the winner.

[johnwang]

As far as whether TCMA and kickboxing should look different or not, I come up this "double spears (double hay-makers)" strategy to deal with someone who runs toward me and tries to knock my head off. It has been tested over and over to prove it works. No matter how fast and powerful my opponent's punch is, my hay-maker can always knock his punch down. The faster that my opponent attacks me, the better chance that my hay-maker can hit on the back of his head.

Do I look like a TCMA guy or a kick-boxer when I use this strategy, It's not important. IMO, which TCMA training can be more important than to deal with an attacker who tries to knock your head off?

[Appledog]

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.

[johnwang]

Most CMA guys don't understand "if you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your arms and legs will no longer be yours". No matter how much time that you may spend in "solo" training, you just can't develop

- timing,
- opportunity, and
- angle.