dedicated to the discussion of the chinese internal martial arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang, taijiquan, related arts, and anything else best discussed over a bottle of rum
Fatal Rose wrote: Doesn't matter which art you study, no sparring? No fighting ability!
+1 I would just add - outside your own gym/style, so you dont spar against someone who is schooled to react certain way to your moves that is seen in your style only
Agreed but regardless you need to do the best with what you have. Not everyone is going to have access/time/money to cross train/spar. Besides sparring experience even if it's only against your style is still valuable and can help you when you start sparring/competing against someone of a different art.
BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, Sambo, Boxing, San Da, and now traditional Okinawan Karate are able to cross over and be competitive in MMA/Full contact. No reason TCMA can't either.
Well, it's not that there's no sparring in tcc or tcma. The problem is --as Niall has consistently pointed out-- that any tcc practitioner who is successful in the ring against practitioners of other styles will be accused of "not doing tcc" or "not using tcc methods." That's why we haven't seen a video that everyone accepts. And, when there is a video of a tcc "master" or "lineage holder" going up against another martial artist, there is usually widespread disappointment. (We all know those videos, too).
Afa footwork, tcma has all sorts of different "steps" and types of stepping. But, if the practitioner doesn't move, it doesn't matter. This is all reminiscent of Bruce Lee's description of a "classical mess." Trying to be or look classical can get in the way of being effective. But, if being classical or looking that way is the goal, then losing shouldn't matter at all.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
Steve James wrote:"not doing tcc" or "not using tcc methods."
I have always believed that the amount of training time that you spend in "footwork", you will get more benefit than from static ZZ. Not only it can help you in fighting. It can also bring you more "healthy" body. If you can train this footwork for 1 mile everyday, you should have no problem to live through your 100 year birthday.
Here is a slow clip. This footwork include:
- 1/2 step, - full step, - 1 and 1/2 step.
- XY has straight line footwork. - Bagua has circle walk. - long fist has low stance walking. - SC has circle running. - Preying mantis has monkey advance and cat retreat footwork. - Kung Li has long distance forward jumping. - ...
What kind of footwork does Taiji and WC have? IMO, if your MA system doesn't have good footwork (or doesn't use much), you have to use footwork from other MA systems, you will not fight like your style does.
It doesn't matter who I may fight against, the 1st thing that I'll do is to "line up my back foot with my opponent's both feet".
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
--EDIT: I HAVE ADDED THE EDITS BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO GET A FEEL FOR SARCASM OR BEING A SMART ARSE. THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS A BIT OF SARCASM-------------------
Here it is. Out and proud Tai Chi guy using it in MMA.
(EDIT: Nick is pretty good but I don't believe he is what many would like to imagine the TC master to look like. That said he has some interesting ground work that seems to be something the Chinese martial artists like to do which is strike from the bottom while tying up. A further point - Nick should be welcomed with open arms to the IMA community because lets face it, he is one of the few guys brave enough to say he does TC and not get his head pounded in badly at a world class mma level.)
And here's some more TCMA guys.
(EDIT: No I don't believe these are unbiased fights. I put this in here because I like the controversy of CCTV. Almost all of them kind of feel staged but I don't care because they do give me a bit of a chuckle).
And since TC, XY and other TCMA is older than MMA looks like everyone has been following TCMA these many years. .
--EDIT: END OF A BIT OF SARCASM BIT------------------------------------------------
Jokes aside who said the front leg & hands up position is a patented move from the west and that no other style cannot claim it? Most of us have 2 arms, 2 leg and a head so there would be a lot of cross over.
Also wouldn't Sanda which is now dated to be almost 100 years actually be a TCMA? I mean it has traditions & has been passed down.... (except when you realise many people use the term for "Tradition" to mean - no sparring, no testing and no refinement which is a bad idea).
Also what's with using this term "TCMA looks like X" - TCMA is what 1000's of different styles. They all should look different in their flavour but let's face it - 2 arms, 2 legs & a head imposes many limits.
As a coach of mine said "if it does not work then take it out". He is a man with over 50 years of TCMA skills in many many styles (he is a living encyclopedia) but has also got a long history of sports fighting (he has trained many guys). What does he look like when he spars? To the untrained eye it might be:
- kickboxing - except when he swaps and crosses his legs regularly because he likes "baqua walking" - maybe a bit of boxing because he sways and moves his body nicely - until he uses a low front leg kick and nice little arcing kicks (64 kicks variations to be exact) - maybe his kicks might looks like a bit of taekwondo when takes on a slightly side on stance and using a spinning back kick (tiger tail kick) - except when he closes he likes to throw using swai jiow - Or is his swai jiow really freestyle wrestling - until he gets to the ground and starts to lock up using the mix of chinna that goes standing to the ground - But on the ground it must be bjj - except he has never learnt bjj and even though he uses arm bars, leg locks and sweeps it's not bjj when he uses arcs kicks, elbows, headbutts and other strikes
But don't get me wrong - nothing he does is probably not found in the west in some way or shape. It's just that he did not learn it there.
EDIT: I actually think the magic of the internal styles is what happens deep down in the body which are hard to see bits vs. moves. Externally there are some golden rules like the bows, sticking, deflection, 7 stars and harmonies which do influence the strategy. But these do sometimes cross over into some other "external" styles.
Last edited by dspyrido on Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks dspyrido for restoring sanity, also Steve James plus John Wang.
to give an answer to John's question, in wu style and specifically in Cheng Tin Hung lineages the main "steps / footworks drills" are:
Seven Star step, which like th eold symbol is a zig-zag, and conttains the principles of western boxings "lead foot dominance" along with the whole idea of changing to face the opponent but having him face away...
Nine Palace Step~: ideal for sweeps, basically legs crossing each other / one's centre
Da Lu foot work: circular in and out changes. both centre and outside of circle
other steps exist too, cat steps and stances, practiced with sanshou drills like "stroke the lute" contains the idea of "retreat in order to advance"
So, from my perspective TCC has more than enough footwork types and drills. Most Wudang / Practical classes begin with seven star step tuishou drill for 5-20 minutes... that's how important the footwork is viewed.. but many of us can actually fight... and don't use or rely on other additional arts to supplement the TCC, quite the opposite, finding the time to train all elements is the trouble, being such a vast system.
a long stride form the tai chi boxercise with a short and long form, 2-3 tuishou "fixed step" methods and a weapon form that the vast, vast majority of Tai Chi consists of in its entirety!
You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear!
MaartenSFS, from your sparring posted I can see you are trying to take on board your teachers instruction and use the stuff you've been taught, and fair play for that, a good way to learn... but I think you are developing a contrived approach. By that, take the shoulder as a recovery from an overshot swinging punch... Now.. the swing is easily countered / blocked first off, then the deliberate overshoot? why deliberately make a mistake? the shoulder causes a critical error as you demonstrate... it leaves you with your back to the opponent! A big no no in any TCMA I've encountered. We use shoulders and train them in four directions and nine palace tuishou.. as recovery and counter techniques should we have our arm dragged.. so AFTER a fuck up, not deliberately causing one. Rabbit punches are typically banned in most striking combat sports for a very good reason, and over-reaching a swinging punch exposes one to this potentially fatal attack, a shoulder is a short range technique, so one leaves a lot of space to be royally fucked up in that situation if intentionally carried out as you demonstrated.
You are also just doing "boxing" , not much kicking or throws, (though then you'd probably be just doing "sanda"?) perhaps a deliberate restriction in this session? Generally I don't restrict the variety in such a manner in sparring, in some drills certainly, but not sparring as I don't want students to develop fallacies about what's possible.
Finally, you are moving and attacking with one shot ambitions... combos, neat combos are always better... you seem to enter without cover of feints or draws and exit with out suppressive fire so to speak... Da Lu tuishou in TCC for example deals specifically with this issue (if the coach knows what he's doing, most do not)
I accept this is a few years ago, and you have more than likely improved, but did you not notice that the other lads, even are your past skill level weren't presenting you much difficulty? OK you had a reach advantage, but these lads one might assume had more training than you? How are they so handicapable? Why aren't we seeing crisp results from the senior students? Its as though sparring is a minor element and used more to test and build courage, which is fine at the start... but development demands well... development. The clip I posted of my students, you can notice varying levels, some lads make major mistakes like covering up and turning their backs (a classic beginner mistake) though not as bad as remaining at the same level and straining the head back out of the way causing double weightiness... I see that alot in the so called "traditional" schools.
Really though, it seems to me now that traditional means hobbyist? boxing without regular fighting... boxercise?
the swinging haymakers are straight out of white-collar charity event boxing, you don't see them much at pro level for a reason. (they can be used in TCMA as set up's for headlocks and headlock throws, but you're not doing this) So could it be that the aesthetic you pursue is simply sloppy? and enjoys the luxury of such an approach by not being crucified for it on a regular basis? This is a BIG question for all "declaredly" TCMA styles, one's that shun sanda and shuaijiao etc. as just kickboxing with judo and just wrestling / judo.
Also... such arts as Western Boxing, Judo etc... have had a major effect over the past 150 years on TCMAs ... all of them! as is natural, martial arts exist to defeat others, not hide in a vacuum! The best way is to compete against them and learn.
one last thing... the "saving face" bullshit is the number one killer of gung fu... I can proudly point out my Sigung taking hits and being thrown by his students as they trained... He had no doubt about his ability, his job was to coach them, as he was coached, and today we have famous BJJ blackbelts opening talking about how they've been tapped on occassion by junior students while rolling (well they are probably trying shit out too that the lower level gives them opportunity to play with, or even maybe having simply a bad day) BUT NOONE seriously equates a Gracie being tapped by a blue belt as meaning the blue belt is now at the Gracie level... There seems to be a major mental problem with this idea of losing until you win among the so called TCMAs.
The TCMAs I like don't have a problem with learning / saving face!
How can you learn if everyone is too caught up with saving face?
Like on their first few days every student of mine, regardless of experience spars me, and I dance around coaching them, presenting opportunities, encouraging them to hit hard, and I wouldn't dream of feeding them to a fighter who's mentally in the Tyson zone and incapable of playing nice, and beginners are usually incapable of playing safe having no movement or guard awareness. I'm being pragmatic. Conversely, I just cannot fathom how skill can develop in an atmosphere that "fears" violence (and that is what being precious about saving face equates to) , instead of engaging in it and making it an art?
dspyrido wrote:Here it is. Out and proud Tai Chi guy using it in MMA.
And here's some more TCMA guys.
And since TC, XY and other TCMA is older than MMA looks like everyone has been following TCMA these many years. . Jokes aside who said a front leg hands up position is a patented move from the west and that no other styles which are very old cannot claim it? Most of use do have 2 arms, 2 leg and a head so there would be a lot of cross over.
Also wouldn't Sanda which is now dated to be almost 100 years actually be a TCMA? I mean it has traditions & has been passed down.... (except when you realise many people use the term for "Tradition" to mean - no sparring, no testing and no refinement which is a bad idea).
Also what's with using this term TCMA looks like X - TCMA is what 1000's of different styles. They all should look different in their flavour but let's face it - 2 arms, 2 legs & head imposes many limits.
As a coach of mine said "if it does not work then take it out". He is a man with over 50 years of TCMA skills in many many styles (he is a living encyclopedia) but has also got a long history of sports fighting (he has trained many guys). What does he look like when he spars? To the untrained eye it might be:
- kickboxing - except when he swaps and crosses his legs regularly because he likes "baqua walking" - maybe a bit of boxing because he sways and moves his body nicely - until he uses a low front leg kick and nice little arcing kicks (64 kicks variations to be exact) - maybe his kicks might looks like a bit of taekwondo when takes on a slightly side on stance and using a spinning back kick (tiger tail kick) - except when he closes he likes to throw using swai jiow - Or is his swai jiow really freestyle wrestling - until he gets to the ground and starts to lock up using the mix of chinna that goes standing to the ground - But on the ground it must be bjj - except he has never learnt bjj and even though he uses arm bars, leg locks and sweeps it's not bjj when he uses arcs kicks, elbows, headbutts and other strikes
But don't get me wrong - nothing he does is probably not found in the west in some way or shape. It's just that he did not learn it there.
Anything CCTV is either fake, fixed, and Chinese propaganda. They have a bunch of shows here of TCMA guys defeating BJJ and Judo (in the clinch or on the groud). It looks extremely fake and prearranged.
Also when does TaiJiQuan use high spinning kicks and jumping back kicks?
A: strong foundations, good basics, and good power generation, or B: fighting knowledge and fighting experience?
Most CMA guys start from A and move to B (or never reach to B). I prefer to start from B and move to A.
In another thread, someone said that I don't understand 三宝 (san bao). If my fist can meet on my opponent's face, I truly don't care about what 三宝(san bao) is.
Do anybody know what 三宝(san bao) is? I tried to Google it but couldn't find anything.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
Great for this Nick fella. Hadn't heard of him. This teaser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHp_KK0fFxQ looks interesting. On a tangent, there used to be some posters who would always mention Cartmell, which tended to be annoying, but when I went by his awesome gym for a weekend, we did pretty similar stuff to what is in this teaser. Very relaxed, recognizably from big 3 IMA, and if not, he could clearly show me until I recognized it. Basic punch and parry moves from xingyiquan that might "look like" any other style. Throws/standup grappling things from taijiquan and baguazhang. Going from forms to "CMA" sparring: wish I coulda learned all that.
Really always enjoy JW's instructional vids, too.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong / better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise / “most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
Wow that's a rant Niall Keane, your comments just seem as if; " it's not in your world, then everybody else is wrong" kinda thing. I don't think it's so cut and dry...you're kinda over critical of MaartenSFS (and NO I don't know him personally or have ever conversed with him) I'm talking specifically about the "Arm Swinging" criticism.
In southern arts, the lead swinging arm he used in that video (10:18 - 10:22) is both a block and a strike...it's a "Gwa Choi" and it's followed by a "Sow choi". The concept clears the gate (blocks)or can lead back hand strike....and sets up another strike the In-curved or sow choi. He even adequately dodged a strike prior to throwing it.
A person doesn't even have to be playing "Devils Advocate" to find opposition with some of the things you said.
For example:
Niall wrote; cut text.... recovery from an overshot swinging punch...cut text
Those paragraphs following that really????? Really?? That's like pointing out that a type of attack has a weakness and can be countered!! What a novel idea, I didn't know that there existed techniques that NEVER: - Missed or overshot, thus leaving yourself exposed. - were able to be countered
Niall wrote; You are also just doing "boxing" , not much kicking or throws..
So, who cares? Is that not sparring with CMA? Dude, you kinda sound like the sparring police.
In that time stamp I have given: when he used Gwa and Sow...it was a perfectly viable demo of TMA used freely. It doesn't matter to me how short it was or if he didn't use fancy combos. That's how it looks and it works. There are ALLOT of sparring schools that throw BIG wide sweeping forearm strikes. It is a time tested and proven way to Knock People out. If you don't think that or you doubt that for a second.... I question the validity or your so called expertise.
Niall wrote; Finally, you are moving and attacking with one shot ambitions... combos, neat combos are always better... you seem to enter without cover of feints or draws and exit with out suppressive fire so to speak...
Really, the best fighters in the world have never attacked with just one shot before? Mabe they were a little tired. Sparring is sparring, it's kinda picky of you to say this.
Niall wrote; ...did you not notice that the other lads, even are your past skill level weren't presenting you much difficulty? OK you had a reach advantage, but these lads one might assume had more training than you? How are they so handicapable? Why aren't we seeing crisp results from the senior students? ...
Your comments about the skill levels and how you compare to your videos.... Even professionals(sometimes) do not like to fight amateurs for one major reason, they can be unpredictable and occasionally get lucky. IMO, it doesn't matter and not knowing you or your students I would never judge your clips harshly either.
Niall wrote; ...the swinging haymakers are straight out of white-collar charity event boxing, you don't see them much at pro level for a reason. ...So could it be that the aesthetic you pursue is simply sloppy?
Other than Professional Western Boxing (in which it also does happen) which PRO levels are you referring to???
Pro MMA? (various events around the world) Certainly allot of vids with people getting NTFO with a haymaker K1? same ditto Muay Thai? not as common but i've seen it San Da... Yes ect, ect...
PLEASE name a pro level full contact event where a guy using a swinging haymaker to knock his opponent out would be frowned upon???!
The Sloppy comment kills me and in my opinion the one that "Crucifies" your view. Even a pro can look sloppy at times, it happens, big deal...so long as it gets results I'm not interested in if it looks like a kung fu movie. Only that it's effective.
It's also subjective, a person might view a single Swinging haymaker knockout as a beautiful technique.
As an example I give you:
The lead hand trap is a perfect example of TMA and how we use the concept: "The hand does not come back empty"
Lastly,
Fatal Rose in the Original post wrote: Has anyone successfully incorporated sparring into their gongfu classes? If so, how'd you do it?
Dude, that's the original question... I think truthfully the answer is also subjective to individual goals. I don't believe that everyone is meant to be a world class fighter, do you? We can only become as good in measure to how hard we work. Have I ever defended myself in the street (with TMA ) = yes. Have my students done so successfully = yes. I think that's a good place to start.
Last edited by Subitai on Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Fatal Rose wrote:Anything CCTV is either fake, fixed, and Chinese propaganda. They have a bunch of shows here of TCMA guys defeating BJJ and Judo (in the clinch or on the groud). It looks extremely fake and prearranged.
Also when does TaiJiQuan use high spinning kicks and jumping back kicks?
There's a bit of sarcasm sprinkled in my post but I have edited it for clarity. I know what CCTV does and it does give me a bit of a chuckle.
As for the jumping kicks - actually I have seen some TC boys do spinning crescent kicks and some have done it with jumps so you tell me.
Sifu Chris Heintzman has been training with Grandmaster David Chin for more than 20 years and continues to do so today.
We do not concentrate on flowery forms – as the old saying goes, “brocade leg and plum flower fist”. The meaning is that it looks beautiful but is quite flimsy. We concentrate on combat effective techniques and the conditioning required for their development and implementation.
Subitai wrote:Wow that's a rant Niall Keane, your comments just seem as if; " it's not in your world, then everybody else is wrong" kinda thing. I don't think it's so cut and dry...you're kinda over critical of MaartenSFS (and NO I don't know him personally or have ever conversed with him) I'm talking specifically about the "Arm Swinging" criticism.
In southern arts, the lead swinging arm he used in that video (10:18 - 10:22) is both a block and a strike...it's a "Gwa Choi" and it's followed by a "Sow choi". The concept clears the gate (blocks)or can lead back hand strike....and sets up another strike the In-curved or sow choi. He even adequately dodged a strike prior to throwing it.
A person doesn't even have to be playing "Devils Advocate" to find opposition with some of the things you said.
For example:
Niall wrote; cut text.... recovery from an overshot swinging punch...cut text
Those paragraphs following that really????? Really?? That's like pointing out that a type of attack has a weakness and can be countered!! What a novel idea, I didn't know that there existed techniques that NEVER: - Missed or overshot, thus leaving yourself exposed. - were able to be countered
Niall wrote; You are also just doing "boxing" , not much kicking or throws..
So, who cares? Is that not sparring with CMA? Dude, you kinda sound like the sparring police.
In that time stamp I have given: when he used Gwa and Sow...it was a perfectly viable demo of TMA used freely. It doesn't matter to me how short it was or if he didn't use fancy combos. That's how it looks and it works. There are ALLOT of sparring schools that throw BIG wide sweeping forearm strikes. It is a time tested and proven way to Knock People out. If you don't think that or you doubt that for a second.... I question the validity or your so called expertise.
Niall wrote; Finally, you are moving and attacking with one shot ambitions... combos, neat combos are always better... you seem to enter without cover of feints or draws and exit with out suppressive fire so to speak...
Really, the best fighters in the world have never attacked with just one shot before? Mabe they were a little tired. Sparring is sparring, it's kinda picky of you to say this.
Niall wrote; ...did you not notice that the other lads, even are your past skill level weren't presenting you much difficulty? OK you had a reach advantage, but these lads one might assume had more training than you? How are they so handicapable? Why aren't we seeing crisp results from the senior students? ...
Your comments about the skill levels and how you compare to your videos.... Even professionals(sometimes) do not like to fight amateurs for one major reason, they can be unpredictable and occasionally get lucky. IMO, it doesn't matter and not knowing you or your students I would never judge your clips harshly either.
Niall wrote; ...the swinging haymakers are straight out of white-collar charity event boxing, you don't see them much at pro level for a reason. ...So could it be that the aesthetic you pursue is simply sloppy?
Other than Professional Western Boxing (in which it also does happen) which PRO levels are you referring to???
Pro MMA? (various events around the world) Certainly allot of vids with people getting NTFO with a haymaker K1? same ditto Muay Thai? not as common but i've seen it San Da... Yes ect, ect...
PLEASE name a pro level full contact event where a guy using a swinging haymaker to knock his opponent out would be frowned upon???!
The Sloppy comment kills me and in my opinion the one that "Crucifies" your view. Even a pro can look sloppy at times, it happens, big deal...so long as it gets results I'm not interested in if it looks like a kung fu movie. Only that it's effective.
It's also subjective, a person might view a single Swinging haymaker knockout as a beautiful technique.
As an example I give you:
The lead hand trap is a perfect example of TMA and how we use the concept: "The hand does not come back empty"
Lastly,
Fatal Rose in the Original post wrote: Has anyone successfully incorporated sparring into their gongfu classes? If so, how'd you do it?
Dude, that's the original question... I think truthfully the answer is also subjective to individual goals. I don't believe that everyone is meant to be a world class fighter, do you? We can only become as good in measure to how hard we work. Have I ever defended myself in the street (with TMA ) = yes. Have my students done so successfully = yes. I think that's a good place to start.
I was very very deliberate in my choice of words borrowed directly from Martins own criticism of my lads sparring clips... the post forms part of a thread and should not be taken on its own... I don't go around criticising sincere efforts at sparring no matter my private thoughts .. but I made an exception here, I felt justified in reflecting the attitude back and I stand by my points.
To clarify... I'm not against swing attacks persay ... only when they are the primary method as the fact is that they are easier to block. I do not accept deliberately putting ones self in a weak position, recovery from one sure.... but as part of "strategy"... it's one thing to set traps it's quite another to not even know the danger!
Even pros use one shot attacks.. sure, but it's mixed up not predictable. If it's all you got then timing your demise is child's play.
And still.... no clips of open format traditional Chinese martial arts sparring that looks "world's apart"!
It's fairly typical on RSF for shit like that to be let slide... and decades later the same question is still without an answer.
See... I know that one can do bread and butter techniques found in every martial art but in a Tcma flavour! Even in an external or internal flavour... but 1970's shaw-brother theatrics? ... that's whats really hinted at, it's a cultural memory... thing is it's confusion regarding the difference between pantomime and real life.
Last edited by Niall Keane on Mon May 01, 2017 5:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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