Sparring in CMA

[MaartenSFS]

Way to shrug off logical, well-thought-out responses, Niall. I can see now that discussing Gongfu with you is like beating a dead horse. You will fit in at Bullshido. Enjoy your Sanda.

Still, some people added me on WeChat and I am happy to know that there are others out there that feel the same.

[MaartenSFS]

Please add me (Maarten-SFS) on WeChat and I can show several more clips. ...
They show 100% traditional techniques used against a resisting opponent (and my improvement as a fighter over time). (especially the last two clips which show me completely shake off the last remnants of my Sanda...
Those last clips will also show what TCMA combos look like.
I admittedly started with one-shots, but so does everyone. I've since improved a lot.

Hey Maarten,

I would love to see your fighting growth. But, I don't do WeChat.
Can you upload to Dropbox or Google Drive or similar formats like that?
Once loaded to Dropbox or whatever all you'd have to do is provide a link.

If you can't I understand but am really interested.

Unfortunately there is no other way. When I get back to the West in a year or so (still waiting on my wife's visa) I'll begin uploading to Youtube. I began sparring with the boxers again today so I hope that I'll have more videos soon, though I've regressed a bit since I didn't train at all for over two months and I've still got to take it easy. It may take a month or two before I have anything worth showing.

[windwalker]

You talk about a le tai tradition. Where is the evidence and documentation of this then ?
I'm not discounting the idea that some city or big town put guys on a platform to entertain and fight now and again.. I just don't think it was serious competition as there's a fair chance much of it was worked.
More like a circus affair, like the old time wrestlers or boxers did. And they may have invited locals up to test their kung fu for example.
Other than the 2 early tournaments held in China in the 20th century all we have is some anecdotal accounts like the one you put forward.
No substance is ever cited, no serious research - nothing!

many styles have similar histories based on the leitai.
Are you suggesting that they also never happened or are just the stuff of legends.
As for things being "worked" part of CMA history was about keeping things from others in order
not to get "worked" or have the student challenge the teacher....many gyms adopted an indoor and outdoor strategy.

Hop Gar (xia jia in Mandarin,家) means "knight/hero clan." It is the same xia in mandarin as in wuxia, which is a term used to describe books and movies that exemplify martial heroes. "For generations, the Lama monks were imperial palace guards," explains Chin. "There was much hatred for imperial loyalists. Therefore, Master Wong changed the name from Lama to Hop Gar to distance the art from the royal family." Many Lion's Roar enthusiasts add that Hop Gar is Wong's interpretation of the art fused with other tactics gleaned from his extensive combat experience, as well as his legendary association with the other Ten Tigers.

One of Wong's most popular tales is his return to Guangdong. In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. "Either the challenger was maimed or killed," noted Chin. "He never let one challenger leave his school without injury. "not a nice guy"

He was a master of using the technique of cruelty " bad stuff never liked it ."
There are four principles for Hop Gar: cruelty, evasion, penetration and interception.

When asked about cruelty, Chin stoically quotes the Lama White Crane kung fu classics:

"When hunting a tiger, destroy it. Otherwise, a wounded tiger will return to harm you.
When weeding a garden, pull up the roots. Otherwise, the weeds will grow back.
Whether the lion is hunting an elephant or a rabbit, the lion always uses full force."

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=661

" Many Lion's Roar enthusiasts add that Hop Gar is Wong's interpretation of the art fused with other tactics gleaned from his extensive combat experience, as well as his legendary association with the other Ten Tigers.

kinda sounds like an MMA type of guy for his time.

[johnwang]

Another CMA is too deadly argument.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/xingyi/ ... 429191248/

[windwalker]

He taught as the youngest faculty member in the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute (中央國術館) and exchanged knowledge with other martial arts experts. He created his own variation of t'ai chi and xingyi, Chang t'ai chi, based on Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan, xingyi and his shuai jiao knowledge.[3] Chang travelled across all China and learned with around 70 masters, always introducing himself as a simple student in order to learn everything possible.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Tung_Sheng

old style MMA

There are several famous anecdotes about Chang's short temper. In one occasion, a man came to the Taipei National Police University and asked to train with him; instead of answering, Tung Sheng attacked the visitor and threw him down, forcing him to confess that he had actually come to challenge him after the training, something Chang had already figured out.

[4] Similarly, Robert W. Smith once traveled to Taiwan to interview Tung Sheng and train with him, but when he asked the master to show him some of his skills, Chang just kicked Smith in the groin.

Kick to the groin, had to hurt dispite what some have posted to the contrary.

In reading the many stories about some of the old masters,
they all went out and did things, not talk about them.

always introducing himself as a simple student in order to learn everything possible

Hello, I'm just a simple student

[cloudz]

Competition always existed in public and in private and, of course, "for real" in the military.

If it existed in public, I'd be interested in more details, are there public records for example. Is there anyone anywhere who has done the research and made it available that you know of? When you mention the military, are you seriously bringing the kind of fighting they did into a discussion about bare hand duels. Why ?

[cloudz]

Please add me (Maarten-SFS) on WeChat and I can show several more clips. ...
They show 100% traditional techniques used against a resisting opponent (and my improvement as a fighter over time). (especially the last two clips which show me completely shake off the last remnants of my Sanda...
Those last clips will also show what TCMA combos look like.
I admittedly started with one-shots, but so does everyone. I've since improved a lot.

Hey Maarten,

I would love to see your fighting growth. But, I don't do WeChat.
Can you upload to Dropbox or Google Drive or similar formats like that?
Once loaded to Dropbox or whatever all you'd have to do is provide a link.

If you can't I understand but am really interested.

Unfortunately there is no other way. When I get back to the West in a year or so (still waiting on my wife's visa) I'll begin uploading to Youtube. I began sparring with the boxers again today so I hope that I'll have more videos soon, though I've regressed a bit since I didn't train at all for over two months and I've still got to take it easy. It may take a month or two before I have anything worth showing.

I'm curious about the boxers. Is it a gym, do they have any amatuers that fight etc.
Has the coach coached any succesful fighters or regular fighter in any format ?

Are we talking fight gym like we recognise in the West or is this more a bunch of enthusiastic hobby guys - which is cool of course.

You really need to train (or compete) with fighters and grapplers who have competitioon experience who can really test you.
I feel like that's what you're missing and it should straighten you out some more. Myself, Subitai and Niall have all done that on varying levels.
I have never met someone in KF who's done that and bangs on like you do about style - i think there's some grey area, and that it's a lot more personal/individual than is generally accepted; probably moreso in KF than other martial cultures. You don't yet know what you don't know (haven't experienced)
Higher level guys in striking, grappling and both will open your eyes A LOT. Make no mistake about it.

But it depends what level you're interested in reaching at the end of the day.
As we can see the fighting level of TCMA in China is pretty damn shit.

I'm also curious about this "epic" fight your master had in front of you.
I mean was it a fight in the same sense as that MMA vs. Tai Chi video from China ?
Where both people are serious about beating the other guy - that's a fight.. In my book, don't call it a fight unless it's a proper fight you know.

You see I can't help having the feeling that it was more like two guys putting on a bit of a sparring "show" for you with some contact.
It wouldn't be beyond the pale that these guys were interested in impressing you on some level, more than actually fighting eachother.

A lot of people who don't really know the world of serious competition can't appreciate the level and intensity of training and fighting involved.
At any rate, keep doing what you're doing, you're on the right tracks it just doesn't do you any favours being a dick to other KF guys training.

[cloudz]

He taught as the youngest faculty member in the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute (中央國術館) and exchanged knowledge with other martial arts experts. He created his own variation of t'ai chi and xingyi, Chang t'ai chi, based on Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan, xingyi and his shuai jiao knowledge.[3] Chang travelled across all China and learned with around 70 masters, always introducing himself as a simple student in order to learn everything possible.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Tung_Sheng

old style MMA

There are several famous anecdotes about Chang's short temper. In one occasion, a man came to the Taipei National Police University and asked to train with him; instead of answering, Tung Sheng attacked the visitor and threw him down, forcing him to confess that he had actually come to challenge him after the training, something Chang had already figured out.

[4] Similarly, Robert W. Smith once traveled to Taiwan to interview Tung Sheng and train with him, but when he asked the master to show him some of his skills, Chang just kicked Smith in the groin.

Kick to the groin, had to hurt dispite what some have posted to the contrary.

In reading the many stories about some of the old masters,
they all went out and did things, not talk about them.

always introducing himself as a simple student in order to learn everything possible

Hello, I'm just a simple student

That's all fair enough, but it's a country mile away from the kind of competition available in many places now in the modern era. They say steel sharpens steel.
Having the odd challenge or lei tai once in a while is another world from a regular competitor and an established organized competition circuit.

There's a perfect example of the HK fight, I expect the real levels of most TCMA "masters" don't get much better than that without the addition of certain training methods.

[MaartenSFS]

This is a quiet area of a park, surrounded by shrubbery. There is an equipment locker and a hanging bag, speed balls, etc. The coach is in his 70s and was an instructor for the army in Harbin. I'm not sure about his competition record, but he has a lot of fighting experience. Fought Russians as well. He has students that have gone on to compete, including a ten year old little girl (she won whatever competition she was in). The people I'm sparring arrive at the park almost every day of the year and run, do these suspension exercises on pull-up bars and then train boxing for an hour or more. They are dedicated amateurs (and look ripped). The fact that I have access to these people to train with and that they let me fight them with my style is a miracle in China, let alone in this little city in Chinese Siberia (and free of charge).

I have no interest in competition and whether or not I can make my stuff work against a professional athlete does not in any way validate or invalidate the effectiveness of my art. People I'm likely to face on the street are at the very best going to be as good as an amateur (if they aren't straight up murderers). Niall's competition history is great, but doesn't interest me, as he is doing Sanda and I am doing TCMA and this is a TCMA forum. I'm learning from the boxing coach at the moment because he has a lot of fighting experience and has been helping me to refine my stuff. Surprisingly, but not really, his advice is almost the same as what my master would say or has said.

As to the epic fight - alright, let's call it an epic sparring session then. And it wasn't a show. I wasn't even supposed to be watching. I stopped training and came over and starting watching because they were going at it so intensely. It was epic for me because I was a witness to these two genuine masters of different arts barely holding back and chasing each other back and forth and between stone columns with a ferocity and intent I've not seen since in the TCMA world. Knowing what your master is capable of is a great thing because all possible doubt is washed away and one can focus on following the instructions to the letter. What you feel is irrelevant because you weren't there. Anyways, you're free to add me on WeChat and see for yourself that my sparring is different from Sanda.

[cloudz]

For the OP.

I think WW posted the polaris page link. On there you should find a clip of Mike Pattersons Kuoshu/ Letei team that he trained for Taiwan competition using a combination of xingyi / bagua from the Yizong tradition iirc. This is the same stuff that greatly respected guys like Luo De Xu and Tim Cartmell would have been exposed to who also fought in that same format/ tournament. You can definitely see the CMA flavouring in Pattersons guys IMO. Off the top of my head that's the one that comes to mind from amatuer/hobby level. The Kuoshu format is the least restrictive out there for KF guys other than MMA.

[MaartenSFS]

I agree that their stuff is some of the best on Youtube. Not because they are famous and well-respected, but because of what I can objectively see. Just because a master is not well-known does not mean he is not well-respected by those that do know him. Let's not forget that China was closed off for a long time and that the government was actively trying to stamp out TCMA for all time. Why would these masters that are still diligently working to pass on their art seek fame when that is what got many killed in the past? Taiwan and HK are a different story, a different world.

Also, see my reply to your other post above.

[cloudz]

This is a quiet area of a park, surrounded by shrubbery. There is an equipment locker and a hanging bag, speed balls, etc. The coach is in his 70s and was an instructor for the army in Harbin. I'm not sure about his competition record, but he has a lot of fighting experience. Fought Russians as well. He has students that have gone on to compete, including a ten year old little girl (she won whatever competition she was in). The people I'm sparring arrive at the park almost every day of the year and run, do these suspension exercises on pull-up bars and then train boxing for an hour or more. They are dedicated amateurs (and look ripped). The fact that I have access to these people to train with and that they let me fight them with my style is a miracle in China, let alone in this little city in Chinese Siberia (and free of charge).

What i'm getting at is if any are active amatuer fighters as you might find if you walked into a typical boxing gym in the UK. That kind of guy in your weight class would really allow you to gauge what you could realistically expect to put together and give you insight to what to best prioritize; depending on your goals. Simply training for competition is in itself a step up in normal training at any Gym that produces fighters. So if that's not happening regularly that gives an idea of the comparitive things you would be exposed to.

Look I agree, it's great on any level. Great for you, good on them etc. However you have to not get carried away by what it means in the bigger picture.

I have no interest in competition and whether or not I can make my stuff work against a professional athlete does not in any way validate or invalidate the effectiveness of my art. People I'm likely to face on the street are at the very best going to be as good as an amateur (if they aren't straight up murderers).

This is bang on, so why talk shit and aim it at people who are competitive and want to show something against other trained fighters. You were all about being the guy to show videos and prove your words. I can respect and appreciate whatever position you find yourself and whatever your feelings have changed to. But you have repeatedly cited what you see from Western CMA people and done a common thing in MA. You try to promote or elavate one idea whilst simultaniously putting down something else in comparison.

If like some of us you did really put yourself out there "over here" you would find the new found respect you have been sorely lacking for some of your fellow martial artists. You have been condescending around here, no doubt about it. You make a few fair points in the process, and it's still a good reminder for people to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. That can also go for the reverse view, but there's also a middle ground between you and Niall (seeing as you have generally taken up the two sides of a well worn argument) I feel which can be a really grey area and is very individual/personal and hard to quantify/ nail down in a wider sense.

[cloudz]

something else I find super ironic ?
oh yes there's more.

you talk about self protection..

Trust me, if someone threatens you or your family seriously the absolute last thing you will or should give a shit about is what anything looks like.
if anything you should concern yourself with that when it comes to sparring competing training developing. And whatever it turns into it'll be your style, because hopefully you'll be a guy who owns his shit, whatever it is. that's the more important thing, not what it is or what it looks like.

can it improve your chances of protecting you and your loved ones
do you enjoy it

[Steve James]

Competition always existed in public and in private and, of course, "for real" in the military.

If it existed in public, I'd be interested in more details, are there public records for example. Is there anyone anywhere who has done the research and made it available that you know of? When you mention the military, are you seriously bringing the kind of fighting they did into a discussion about bare hand duels. Why ?

Start here. http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/

[MaartenSFS]

Look, I want to know where it was that I was talking shit.. I have repeatedly said that I respect Sanda and Niall's competition record, etc. All I said is those videos don't represent TCMA. I also never said that it should look like TCMA for styles' sake. It can't look the same because the techniques and strategies are different. Looking different is an effect, not the cause.. And, if it's my statement that the hand techniques looked sloppy, it's because they were. I also said the throws looked good. I wasn't being unfair or talking shit.

Is this some kind of tag team? Niall got tired so you jump in? Why haven't either of you added me on WeChat and had a look? Why do you claim to do TCMA and talk shit about China and TCMA and people that have devoted many, many years of their lives to slum it here and try to learn these arts in the country they came from? Have either of you been to China? Lived here? It's not a goddamn picnic.

Every time I take a challenge in a park I am putting myself at risk. No referees. A foreigner in a very xenophobic country. Don't scoff at my non-competition training. It has worked for me and isn't any less TCMA than someone that fights in competitions. Go to a boxing gym and a champion and an amateur will both look like they are training and sparring boxing because boxing looks like fucking boxing and there is no mistaking it.

Anyways, I've said enough to both of you. I've provided evidence and you both ignore it. Your agenda is clear. TCMA are dead in China and you are all that is left. Good for you.