Sparring in CMA

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:18 am

Yes, but I had just dislocated my left thumb and could only use a limited amount of techniques, so it's not really a good example of TCMA sparring. Also I've improved a lot since then (2.5 years ago).
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Fatal Rose on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:21 am

Karate stance and footwork is noticeably different from standard kick boxing stance and footwork. You can see it clearly in Karate fighters that fight in MMA.

I think Gongfu doesn't retain that type of footwork because it doesn't have a history of sport sparring with strict rules on only using the styles traditional techniques in a point sparring match. Also before anyone discredits point fighting, many point fighter she have become great full contact fighters. Raymond Daniels, Machida brothers, Michael Paige, Stephen Thompson just to name a few.

For an art to develop proper footwork/movement for combat or sparring it needs style specific sparring rules IMO. Not sure if I'm making sense. Think I'll shut up now lol.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:24 am

I don't subscribe to the gloves argument (I can spar with TCMA in pretty much any ruleset) and I'm not talking about Sanda with several traditional techniques tacked on to it. I'm talking about at least 75% TCMA techniques. The rest look similar but have subtle differences.
Anyways, no one's added me on WeChat except the person who started this thread, so I'm signing out. Have fun with your Sanda. I mean that. It is a great art and better than most TCMA that I've seen here in China.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:34 am

Soon after I started learning from my master I had the fortune of watching him fight with another master - perhaps the most skilled that I have ever seen; Zhang Binghai of Henan Xinyiliuhequan. It was pretty fucking epic and had a profound influence on me. My master fought with a combination of things, most notably Baguazhang and Zhang Shifu fought with Xinyiliuhequan. They used the techniques and strategies unique to their styles. I met many other masters after that, but never got to see them fight with one another.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:39 am

I have shown this clip before. In this short clip, you can see that he has a "plan". He had executed his plan twice within 15 seconds. His plan is to

- use kicks to close the distance and set up punches,
- use punches to set up clinch,
- use clinch to execute throw.

The questions is "Is this TCMA strategy, or Sanda strategy?"

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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby bartekb on Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:20 am

Yes, but I had just dislocated my left thumb and could only use a limited amount of techniques, so it's not really a good example of TCMA sparring.

https://youtu.be/vsriRyODYqo 3:20 i assume? the one that starts at 5:00 - this is where it really gets bad
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:49 am

Fatal Rose wrote:Karate stance and footwork is noticeably different from standard kick boxing stance and footwork. You can see it clearly in Karate fighters that fight in MMA.

I think Gongfu doesn't retain that type of footwork because it doesn't have a history of sport sparring with strict rules on only using the styles traditional techniques in a point sparring match. Also before anyone discredits point fighting, many point fighter she have become great full contact fighters. Raymond Daniels, Machida brothers, Michael Paige, Stephen Thompson just to name a few.

For an art to develop proper footwork/movement for combat or sparring it needs style specific sparring rules IMO. Not sure if I'm making sense. Think I'll shut up now lol.


In general within a gym, there should be no need for any rule set requiring one to use what is only trained in the gym....If one practices boxing, and attempted to use judo in their practice seems like it would negate what they were there for.

In principle one learns how to get good at defeating those they practice with, which should help them to develop and understand weakness within
what ever they study and themselves.

Later on this should be applied against those not in the gym the basic idea being that what ever was practiced gives one an advantage that the other does not have because they do not practice it...ie n-mantis vs hung gar / wing chun vs white crane ect.....

foot work is foot work,,,many CMA styles have very sophisticated training for it...tends to be a problem for those that train it and
do not use it.....
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:15 am

bartekb wrote:
Yes, but I had just dislocated my left thumb and could only use a limited amount of techniques, so it's not really a good example of TCMA sparring.

https://youtu.be/vsriRyODYqo 3:20 i assume? the one that starts at 5:00 - this is where it really gets bad

No, it starts at around 10:00. I only had the one hand, the one I don't normally use as much. If it's strong enough, though, people will want to get out of the way.. :P

At 3:30 I attempted to switch to a right lead, which did not work out for me very well. After that I began training both sides almost equally in case something like that happens again (and it did) and my right lead side has vastly improved.

At 5:00 you can't really criticise the short one too much. He is a Gongfu brother of mine and studied Sanda for about one year and about eight months with my master before that video was shot. It was supposed to be a friendly sparring bout and that arsehole just went mental on him. After the initial shock he recovered and gave his opponent a really hard blow towards the end, which is sort of off camera. You can see some traditional techniques in there, plus a bit of traditional footwork, but it is from a Sanda base. The other bloke studied Baguazhang and is supposed to be a priest at the local mosque and was bragging about it for a long time afterwards. It looked like utter shite and the next time I saw him, just before I left Guilin, I really wanted to bash his brains in, but restrained myself.

The short one went on to compete in several provincial Sanda tournaments, where he was always in the top three. He was never able to fully convert from Sanda to TCMA. Perhaps when people are used to a particular fighting style it's harder for them to totally switch techniques and strategies and much easier to just add in some traditional techniques that fit well into what you already do.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:49 am

johnwang wrote:I have shown this clip before. In this short clip, you can see that he has a "plan". He had executed his plan twice within 15 seconds. His plan is to

- use kicks to close the distance and set up punches,
- use punches to set up clinch,
- use clinch to execute throw.

The questions is "Is this TCMA strategy, or Sanda strategy?"


It's much more difficult to tell the difference when it concerns Shuaifa..
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:53 pm

Just found these 2 clips in another forum. What was wrong in these 2 fights?



Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Steve James on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:54 pm

Nothing's wrong. The problem is that neither of the guys who were knocked down knew how to defend themselves from their opponents. Of course, if they'd just did a basic cover up or just held, they would have survived longer. There's no way to know if their offenses would have been any good. But, if you let the other bang you in the head and body, you'll probably lose --no matter the style.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:19 pm

Steve James wrote:Nothing's wrong.

Old CMA saying said, "You may not find any opportunity to attack. But you should keep moving. When you move and move, soon or later you will find opportunity to attack. IMO, in both fights, the Taiji guy and WC guy did not move around enough.



The following clip is one of my favor.

Last edited by johnwang on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby Fatal Rose on Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:52 am

johnwang wrote:Just found these 2 clips in another forum. What was wrong in these 2 fights?





Neither of the TCMA guys have any experience sparring/fighting full contact. Doesn't matter which art you study, no sparring? No fighting ability!
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby bartekb on Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:00 am

Fatal Rose wrote: Doesn't matter which art you study, no sparring? No fighting ability!

+1
I would just add - outside your own gym/style, so you dont spar against someone who is schooled to react certain way to your moves that is seen in your style only
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Re: Sparring in CMA

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:07 am

I agree with John Wang. Their mistake was just standing there. Where is the CMA footwork? My master told me an old story about a tiger learning gongfu from a cat. When the tiger had learned everything he tried to kill his master, the cat. The cat climbed up a tree. He saved teaching him the footwork for last. Footwork is perhaps the most important aspect of any form of fighting.
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