On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Fri May 05, 2017 10:38 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Every move is a spiral employing twisting of silk and reeling of silk
Even though one might be there to a greater degree they are both always there

Hi Wayne, do you mean that literally? In the first move, raise hands, if the hands are shoulder level and you lower them to dantian level, is there a spiral? If so, where? You could turn that into a silk reeling exercise by raising the hands up to shoulder level and lowering your hands x number of times. If you did that is there spiraling? If so, where?
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
robert
Mingjing
 
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 1:07 am

No your right there but you are still in central equilibrium,this is the posture before yin and yang manifest Wu chi
Each move you do you are trying to return to this point
Last edited by wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 2305
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Sat May 06, 2017 6:06 am

wayne hansen wrote:Every move is a spiral employing twisting of silk and reeling of silk
Even though one might be there to a greater degree they are both always there


I can't say that I agree that every move is a spiral because I'm not sure what is meant by "move." I don't disagree; I'm just not clear. Afa the "hidden hand" punch, I don't do Chen style so I didn't want to comment. I did a Youtube search and came up with this for Chen style (not an endorsement or criticism).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqXzTP0XCCg

Here's an example of the Yang style "Step forward, deflect downward, parry, punch." The spiral in the Yang movement is a result of the entire sequence. I'm not sure I could describe each part of the movement as a spiral. I think I've said it before but, imo, spirals are the products of the rotation and translation of points.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq75TBjluMc
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 15595
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Sat May 06, 2017 7:36 am

Try the following. Without over-extending, raise your arm to shoulder height in front of you with your palm facing up. If you pay attention, you'll feel the tension that wraps around the forearm. If you relax the arm, without letting it drop, your hand will turn over, releasing the winding tension through the forearm.


Well, tension/release either indicates or causes movement. In your example, raising the arm with the palm up already creates a tension that raising the arm with palm down doesn't. But, that's not to deny your point. Yes, rotating an appendage while moving it side to side or up and down while create a spiral. However, it rotation without translation or vice versa is always possible, too.

I posted the videos because I was unclear about the term "hidden hand punch." As in your raising arm example, the "punch" itself (fist at the end of arm rotating and moving forward) describes a helix (but coil, spiral, corkscrew could be used). In the Yang SUDDPP, the entire shi could be seen as describing a spiral.

Btw, anyone have a vid of the Sun Style SUDDPP (with included "hidden hand")?
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 15595
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby charles on Sat May 06, 2017 9:15 am

Steve James wrote:I posted the videos because I was unclear about the term "hidden hand punch."


The "hidden hand punch" ("fist" "cover" "hand") is just the name of a move in the Chen form, the equivalent move in Yang style called "Step forward, deflect downward, parry, punch", though performed differently and with different intent. The forward, extended hand is aligned in such a way that it conceals the fist near the torso, hence, the name of the move. The fist drills forward, turning from palm up to palm down, while the opposite arm withdraws, turning that palm from up to down. The opposite arm is as important as the drilling fist, used as an elbow strike or a complimentary grab and pull: there is as much force going into the withdrawing arm as there is in the extending arm (fist). The "cocking" of the fist next to the torso is a twisting motion used as a qin na that can be a precursor to the punch or "push" with the fist. (In some variants, the "punch" is a push with the fist into the opponent's chest or abdomen while the other arm pulls the opponent: one arm pulls while the other pushes, a splitting action.)




In the Yang SUDDPP, the entire shi could be seen as describing a spiral.


Probably could be, but I don't think that describing it that way is particularly helpful.
Last edited by charles on Sat May 06, 2017 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1131
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Sat May 06, 2017 10:27 am

The "hidden hand punch" ("fist" "cover" "hand") is just the name of a move in the Chen form, the equivalent move in Yang style called "Step forward, deflect downward, parry, punch", though performed differently and with different intent.


Appreciated, but no need for explanation of how the Yang style move works.

Probably could be, but I don't think that describing it that way is particularly helpful.


Well, I don't think that describing every movement as a helix or spiral is particularly helpful, but so what? Here's a helix:
Image

The idea can work for a part of the body's motion or the whole body's motion --left right up down. Imo, it's particularly obvious in that Yang movement. I know how the "hidden hand" is interpreted by many in my style. It's that hand that finishes the punch, and it draws a shape. If you have a good video of the Chen style equivalent, then I'd be interested in comparing. I'm not good at translating verbal descriptions into images.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 15595
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Sat May 06, 2017 10:36 am

wayne hansen wrote:No your right there but you are still in central equilibrium,this is the posture before yin and yang manifest Wu chi
Each move you do you are trying to return to this point

If I go through laojia yilu I can't find any complete move that doesn't have some spiraling, but it seems like there are some small pieces. At the end of jin gang dao dui the weight is on the left leg and right fist is in left palm - lift the right fist and right knee and lower both of them. Is there any sprialing? I'm tempted to say these are the exceptions that prove the rule ;D
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
robert
Mingjing
 
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby charles on Sat May 06, 2017 10:51 am

Steve James wrote:Well, I don't think that describing every movement as a helix or spiral is particularly helpful...


I do. Nearly every action in Chen style involves twisting and untwisting/"spiraling". Knowing that can be important to performing self-correction. In Chen style, in general, if the action doesn't spiral, it's being performed incorrectly.

Appreciated, but no need for explanation of how the Yang style move works.


What I described was the Chen "hidden hand punch". Other than to state that it was different, I made no mention of the Yang version of it.
Last edited by charles on Sat May 06, 2017 10:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1131
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Sat May 06, 2017 11:45 am

Steve James wrote:I'm not sure I could describe each part of the movement as a spiral. I think I've said it before but, imo, spirals are the products of the rotation and translation of points.

I think of the limbs turning or rotating as spiraling. The last half of Yang style dan bian the left hand spirals.

Fast forward to 2:15


Image

If the palm turns then that side of the body is spiraling. If you think of jing jin (muscle tendon channels) there are two basic types of movement - opening and closing and spiraling in and out. As Charles pointed out Chen style is almost always spiraling. Yang and Wu less so and Sun even less, I think.
Last edited by robert on Sat May 06, 2017 11:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
robert
Mingjing
 
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Sat May 06, 2017 12:21 pm

Nearly every action in Chen style involves twisting and untwisting/"spiraling". Knowing that can be important to performing self-correction.


Right. You're talking about Chen style. It is not necessarily "helpful" to a student of another art. "Excessive movement" implies there is an opposite: deficient movement. Spirals are naturally created when moving, regardless of style. Extending and rotating the arm --as in a punch-- will (can) be described as a spiral. Yet, Sun style or Wu/Hao do not look like Chen style. Xingyi movements produce spirals, too.

That's why I say it's not necessarily "helpful" in general to simply say that all movements are spiral. It's obvious, even in Sun style. It's the application of the movement/s that create the different appearances. It's how the particular style uses the movement and its intention that matters.

This is not an argument about a particular style. And, it's not necessary to justify one or the other. I just pointed to a particularly obvious one from Yang style. There are plenty more, of course, in Chen style. There's no debate to win here.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 15595
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 06, 2017 1:41 pm

I see no difference in any of the traditional 108 forms other than application and subtlety
The moves may have different names but if you follow the sequence they are all basically the same
I see Chen at one end of the spectrum with obvious energy and CMC at the other with it hidden to the point that most of today's practicioners don't now it's there
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 2305
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby rojcewiczj on Sat May 06, 2017 2:37 pm

When meeting resistance, excessive movement results in bracing. Correct movement results in exertion, your strength acts on the object. Both bracing and exerting involve the use of muscles, so they are easily confused. Once you brace, you will find that you cant exert. Once you exert, you will see that their was no need to brace. Bracing is dead, Exertion is alive. When you brace you become a nail, when you exert you become a hammer.
rojcewiczj
Mingjing
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:09 am

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby windwalker on Sat May 06, 2017 6:00 pm

In a lot of the discussions like this, often what is explained reflects ones' views on the transmission of "energy"
a wave can be described as a disturbance that travels through a medium, transporting energy from one location (its source) to another location without transporting matter.
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/w ... -is-a-Wave

Both can be right in accordance with a view point and theory used to explain it, but may not be useful
if the people using the view points, are talking about different things.

Depending one what method one uses one might be considered to excessive or insufficient.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 07, 2017 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5666
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am
Location: Hisnchu, Taiwan

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby yeniseri on Sun May 07, 2017 2:43 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:When meeting resistance, excessive movement results in bracing. Correct movement results in exertion, your strength acts on the object. Both bracing and exerting involve the use of muscles, so they are easily confused. Once you brace, you will find that you cant exert. Once you exert, you will see that their was no need to brace. Bracing is dead, Exertion is alive. When you brace you become a nail, when you exert you become a hammer.


There is alot of 'stuff' in taijiquan that does not fit the narrative nor the expression of 'reality base skill' because it is just not run of the mill teaching methodology.
One does not have to brace but bend at the closest joint, change direction then straight line to 'target'. When you meet resistance, change direction and that could be 'folding' of elbow, hip, knee, etc when the feint of one can show up in another place based on skill of practitioner. Perhaps the wording is off but perhaps the alternate of not hammer, not nail but attending to the task at hand.

My references are in the realm of wing chun , kali and similar arts using similar concept!
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 2996
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Sun May 07, 2017 4:34 pm

I think there are several better adjectives to use than "excessive." After all, "too much" is determined by the goal. In fighting, the opposite of excessive is adequate. Even better would be efficient. There's never a need to have more than necessary in that context.

When it comes to form and other types of training, excessive, primarily refers to doing "too much," but not necessarily to what is done. For ex., while training, one might extend or contract, step further, or go lower, or turn more than one would do in reality.

Or, take someone who wants to go into competition. He might know many forms, but he'll probably use only a few. And, he might not use any --but that gets back to the old sparring debate and the idea that "you fight the way you train."
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 15595
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest