On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:01 am

My take a little different on excessive movement in regards to taiji.
I look at it as a problem of "translation" based on a lack of understanding of the what and how to move
while manifesting a spherical shape.

"pung" can be thought of as the boundary layer Image
The why and how its formed the subject of another thread.

Any movement done not contained within this shape that either distorts it or destroys it,
is excessive
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby charles on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:35 am

rojcewiczj wrote:If your Peng is sufficient, then even if you are stopped, your opponent will have to receive your force.


I don't know what that means, practically.

You seem to be suggesting that peng is related to transferring force? If we stick with the inflated-ball image of peng, if I accelerate that ball towards an opponent, and upon colliding with the opponent, the ball compresses at the point of contact. Think of an automobile air bag. The point of the air bag is to expand, then compress absorbing the force/momentum. The purpose is to NOT transfer force (to the driver/passenger). If the air bag does not fully deflate, it will transfer more force. If the bag does not deflate at all - expands and stays rigid - it will transfer all of the force. As far as force transmission goes, where does peng fit into this sliding-scale analogy? Maximum "delivery" of force occurs with the collision of two rigid bodies. Does peng make the body rigid?

If we instead model peng as a spring colliding with a rigid object, we have a very different behavior, but the "boundary conditions" are also very different.


It is my job is to train my body until every move I make can and will effect my opponent.


Seems reasonable, though I'm not sure that is a distinguishing characteristic unique to Taijiquan.

For instance, when stepping forward with peng, one leg pushes off the ground and the entire movement of the body correspondence purely to this push off the ground. The entire body becomes a 1 to 1 between strength and movement, force and movement, muscle and movement. Does this mean you need to have bigger and bigger muscles?


Uh oh, the word "strength". People have filled pages with the meaning of the word, particularly when used with the "i" word, "internal".

1:1 is zero mechanical advantage. How does that jibe with "four ounces deflects 1000 lb"? Or with using "no strength"?

the Taiji I love tells you quite simply that your not strong enough!


"Taijiquan reverses the axioms of nature that the strong beat the weak, the fast beat the slow and the young beat the old."

The mystery is not where does the force come from, the mystery is strength itself. What rules strength follows, how is it expressed through movement. Particularity this question, how do we move with strength? Movement itself is a sort of weakness, a softness that must rap itself around iron. Iron by itself is dead and must be concealed within the folds of movement.


I don't know how to interpret what you've written.

Folks seem to like the idea that peng is like water floating a boat. Water is soft and water is hard. When you apply a force to it, it conforms, it moves and does not break. When it rebounds, it is hard, like a tsunami. "Be like water."

Jesus, I'm starting to sound like a fortune cookie.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:51 am

Water is soft and water is hard. When you apply a force to it, it conforms, it moves and does not break. When it rebounds, it is hard, like a tsunami. "Be like water."


really? this is how it works.
How does the water rebound with more energy
then what was put into it. Or do you feel its the result of compression,
can it be compressed?
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby charles on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:55 am

David Boxen wrote:Once the whole body has momentum, e.g. you are stepping forwards, what does it mean to have some parts moving in one direction and others in the opposite direction?


A good question. An answer: it depends.

"Direction" suggests a frame of reference: compared to what? ("Yin" compared to what? "Yang" compared to what?)

If the reference is a stationary point outside of the body, such as an opponent or a tree, the entire body can be moving in one direction but part of the body relative to other parts of the body can move in opposite directions, for example twisting. Imagine being on roller skates, rolling in one direction. While rolling, you can twist, say, the waist so that, say, the shoulders are moving to the side/rear compared to the rest of the body, but all are moving forward relative to a stationary tree.

If the frame of reference is, say, your centerline, then rotating the body about that centerline, all of the parts have motion (i.e. angular momentum). One leg can step forward while the shoulders rotate to the rear, for example. As another example, twisting the waist to the left withdraws the left arm/hand, while extending the right arm/hand. Add twisting of the limbs into the mix and the left hand twists in one direction, say inward, while the other twists outward: one forward, one backward. Yang style "rollback" is - should be - an example of that: it shouldn't just be pulling in one direction to the rear.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby charles on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:07 am

windwalker wrote:
Water is soft and water is hard. When you apply a force to it, it conforms, it moves and does not break. When it rebounds, it is hard, like a tsunami. "Be like water."


really? this is how it works.
How does the water rebound with more energy
then what was put into it. Or do you feel its the result of compression,
can it be compressed?


Where did I state, or imply, that it rebounds with "more energy then [sic] what was put into it"? As you already know, that isn't possible: the law of conservation of energy.

I've already stated, previously, that, for all practical purposes, water is considered to be an incompressible fluid.

Not sure what point you are making.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:45 am

My point was that water only acts only in conjunction with the energy applied to it, has no volition of its own.
neither soft nor hard, one might say its both.


yep, it can not be compressed but can be put under pressure.
Worked in place that used what they called water jets to cut through very hard materials.
Of course the water was really only a carrying medium for the fine grit that actually did the cutting.

One would see what seemed to be only water cutting the material, with warning signs not to put ones fingers in the stream :o
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby rojcewiczj on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:57 am

The way to make your opponent receive your force regardless of their action, is to have no intention in regard to traveling through space, but to have a pure intention towards exertion. If I go to strike my opponent with the intention of turning my shoulder all the way towards them, but they step in very close to me at the last moment, then that turn of the shoulder can result in my own action being jammed; such jamming tactics are used frequently in boxing matches. If one has a pure intention towards exertion then the form or shape of the technique will instantly conform to the spacial requirements dictated by your relation to the opponent. You will find a way to exert into them, indeed, very much like water, which is never deterred by the changing shape of the river bed, as its intention is not based on pre-determined spacial judgments. To posses and manifest this internal logic as an external strength, this is Peng.

In regards to the old formulas "the old beating the young, the weak beating the strong, the slow beating the fast", my personal interpretation is that proper training makes the old younger than the young, makes the weak stronger than the strong, and the slow faster than the fast. In other words, through training one can develop their physical abilities beyond those bestowed passively by nature. Is Taiji a trick, a from of illusion? A way for the weak to trick the strong in a test of combat? For many it might be this, but I prefer to treat Taiji as a method of genuine training which results in the transformation of the body into a more perfect machine.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby everything on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:59 am

Great, great post, thanks.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby GrahamB on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:41 am

Generally I'm a fan of smooth, efficient movement. But if you go too far down the rabbit hole you might forget why you went there in the first place.

As an exercise go and watch an mma fight on YouTube then ask yourself if a knee moving a centimetre would change the outcome...
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby johnwang on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:03 pm

GrahamB wrote:As an exercise go and watch an mma fight on YouTube then ask yourself if a knee moving a centimetre would change the outcome...

People don't need to watch any MMA fight. Just punch on a heavy bag 1,000 times with different amount of knee moving and draw conclusion there.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Bodywork on Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:52 am

..........
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:53 am

Maintaining circular movement creates yin and yang within all aspects of the movement. Chen Fake supposedly told Hong Jun Shang that he believed that people misunderstood peng as the one jin. Rather Chansi jin was the one jin. As within silk reeling...all jins are present.


Ya know, I wonder what if anything the old Yang masters had to say about chansi jin in Yang style. Otoh, I'd say that spirals are the result of rotation and translation --and I think that the "13" whatevers comprise that.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:04 am

Steve James wrote:Ya know, I wonder what if anything the old Yang masters had to say about chansi jin in Yang style. Otoh, I'd say that spirals are the result of rotation and translation --and I think that the "13" whatevers comprise that.

Number 9 from YCF's Ten Important Points
Move with continuity. As to the external schools, their chin (jin) is the Latter Heaven brute chin (jin). Therefore it is finite. There are connections and breaks. During the breaks the old force is exhausted and the new force has not yet been born. At these moments it is very easy for others to take advantage. T'ai Chi Ch'uan uses I and not li. From beginning to end it is continuous and not broken. It is circular and again resumes. It revolves and has no limits. The original Classics say it is "like a great river rolling on unceasingly." and that the circulation of the chin (jin) is "drawing silk from a cocoon " They all talk about being connected together.

From http://www.scheele.org/lee/classics.html
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:56 am

Bodywork wrote:Chen Fake supposedly told Hong Jun Shang that he believed that people misunderstood peng as the one jin. Rather Chansi jin was the one jin. As within silk reeling...all jins are present.

Dan

FWIW Wang Hai Jun has stated: Chen Fake taught that there are two types of peng jin. The first is the fundamental skill or strength of taijiquan. The second is one of the eight commonly recognized taijiquan jins, (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou & kao.) .

They seem to be conflicting stories, but perhaps not. One of Chen Fake's well known students, Feng Zhiqiang has said something similar. From an interview.

YY: People get confused about peng. How do you define it?
FZQ: Peng(2) lu(3) ji(3) an(4) xu(I) ren(4) zhen(l) [you must clearly differentiate and pay attention to peng/lu/ji/an]. Shang(4) xia(4) xiang(l) shui(2) ren(2) nan(2) jin(4) [a good coordination between the upper and lower body will prevent the opponent from entering].

Ren(4) ping(2) dui(4) fang(1) lai(2) da(3) wo(3). Si(4) liang(3) hua(4) dong(4) bo(1) qian(1) jin(1) [no matter how hard the opponent attacks, I can use four ounces to neutralize]. These sayings are used to express the purpose.

Peng means energy goes up; lu, back (left or right side); ji, forward; an, down. But peng is also expressed in lu, ji, and an. Lu is back peng. Ji is forward peng. An is down peng. If you don't have the peng energy, you are too soft. Peng/lu/ji/an are just the variation of peng: up/down, forward/backward, and left right.

YY: Does this mean there are two definitions of peng? One is the upward direction of the four side energy, while the other is a broader concept, the expanding energy concept?
FZQ: It is OK to differentiate; to give two definitions. One is the upward direction of the four-sided energy (peng/lu/ji/an), the other is yi(4) qi(4) gu(3)dang(4). [Gudang has a very subtle meaning. Here it is used to describe the outward expansion/movement/vibration of yi and qi.]

Every movement is guided by yi and qi movement. If you don't have yi qi gudang, you collapse. Even if your limbs do not move, you need to have yi and qi. When your intention arrives, your qi will arrive. Movement will follow naturally and your force will arrive.


See http://www.chentaiji.com/articles/integrating.html

If you have peng jin and you move, maintaining the peng jin, isn't that chansi jin?
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Appledog on Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:34 pm

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.
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