On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:50 pm

I meant peng jin as the core jin, neijin - as discussed in the quotes - the fundamental skill or strength of taijiquan. Chen Fake taught that there are two types of peng jin. The first is the fundamental skill or strength of taijiquan. The second is one of the eight commonly recognized taijiquan jins, (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lieh, zhou & kao.) .
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:18 pm

robert wrote:
Steve James wrote:Ya know, I wonder what if anything the old Yang masters had to say about chansi jin in Yang style. Otoh, I'd say that spirals are the result of rotation and translation --and I think that the "13" whatevers comprise that.

Number 9 from YCF's Ten Important Points
Move with continuity. As to the external schools, their chin (jin) is the Latter Heaven brute chin (jin). Therefore it is finite. There are connections and breaks. During the breaks the old force is exhausted and the new force has not yet been born. At these moments it is very easy for others to take advantage. T'ai Chi Ch'uan uses I and not li. From beginning to end it is continuous and not broken. It is circular and again resumes. It revolves and has no limits. The original Classics say it is "like a great river rolling on unceasingly." and that the circulation of the chin (jin) is "drawing silk from a cocoon " They all talk about being connected together.

From http://www.scheele.org/lee/classics.html


Well, I was curious about two things: one, whether Yang tcc used the terminology "chansi jin." Hopefully, we aren't arguing whether Yang tcc "has" chansi jin or utilizes spiral energy. (I'd say that it has to). But, there isn't a specific "shi" (posture, position, disposition, energy, or "jin") called chan si. As I said, it's not a matter of whether it exists. The point was made in terms of Dan's citation of Feng: i.e., that chansi jin was the central jin, and that --as Dan and Appledog expressed (iinm)-- that peng jin and the other jins were implicit in chansi.

The other issue was the context of this thread: i.e., what is "excessive" movement in tcc, and if it exists, could there be its opposite? Personally, I'd say that excessive and deficient are a question of whether action supports intent. Is a punch in the nose too little or too much? How much does my hand, leg, body need to move to accomplish my goal?

But, I was really interested because, for example, Sun stylists seem to emphasize the energy of "open close" --again, not to deny the presence or lack of anything. I'm just suggesting that different styles (of tcc) have emphasized what they've called different "jin." Sure, one can say that they're all emphasizing "neijin," but then --imo-- people think they know what everyone else is doing because they call it the same thing. Maybe true, but I think that what makes the different styles different are their particular emphases. They lead to different applications even though the theory is consistent.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Appledog on Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:22 pm

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:50 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, I was curious about two things: one, whether Yang tcc used the terminology "chansi jin." Hopefully, we aren't arguing whether Yang tcc "has" chansi jin or utilizes spiral energy. (I'd say that it has to). But, there isn't a specific "shi" (posture, position, disposition, energy, or "jin") called chan si. As I said, it's not a matter of whether it exists. The point was made in terms of Dan's citation of Feng: i.e., that chansi jin was the central jin, and that --as Dan and Appledog expressed (iinm)-- that peng jin and the other jins were implicit in chansi.

I was just pointing out that Yang stylists talk about jin being like drawing silk, is that different than Chen stylists talking about jin being like reeling silk? I don't think so. A reel is used to draw silk from a cocoon. The wording is a little different, but the image is the same.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:19 pm

Fwiw, the complete Classic phrase cited (by YCF) states

"Store up the chin like drawing a bow.
Mobilize the chin like drawing silk from a cocoon.
Release the chin like releasing the arrow."

I suppose this applies to all tcc styles, and maybe other styles as well. Yang style doesn't look like Sun style, but they use and express 'jin' differently. Do they appear to emphasize spirals as much as Chen? Afa this thread subject is concerned, I don't think that Yang moves too little or Chen moves too much. It's the application that matters.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:46 pm

Appledog wrote:Both kinds of peng come out of silk reeling. If you hold peng jin and move with it that isn't silk reeling, unless you want to say it is silk reeling as a technicality because you understand the peng to have come out of the silk reeling in the first place (therefore you are silk reeling). However that amount of mental gymnastics tells me that there is some kind of confusion here. Silk reeling itself is the core jin, which is only called a sort of peng jin because it causes actual peng jin to be manifest everywhere.

For core skills and strengths I would view silk reeling as a sort of stage two skill, peng as stage three, there are other things which need to be trained first. If you want to talk about core or fundamental skills/strengths in tai chi I think we should first discuss stuff like song (relaxed) or lightness (qing) because these things are a prerequisite to getting silk reeling in the first place.

We have different view points. You can develop neijin (peng jin as core) by standing. If you look at Fu Zhongwen's book Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan, which he says records YCF's teaching, for the first posture he gives the postural requirements for neijin (peng jin as core) and says that these apply to all postures in the form. In Chen Xin's book The Illustrated Canon of Chen Family Taijiquan, he has two states prior to going through the postures: wuji and taiji. Like Fu's description the taiji state describes neijin (peng jin as core). There are diagrams for both wuji and taiji, the main difference is that in the taiji diagram the person looks like they are inflated ;) The same thing is true about neijin in Sun Lutang's book Xing Yi Quan Xue, but applied to Santi. So you can have neijin (peng jin as core) in standing. Can you demonstrate chansi jin without moving? I train neijin (peng jin as core) when I'm standing, but if I want to train chansi jin I need to move.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Partridge_Run on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:02 am

Charles,

You are doing a fantastic job with your posts. Your style of communication sets a clear standard.
Thank you for that.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Appledog on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:06 am

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:52 am

Appledog wrote:If you stop moving the silk reeling doesn't disappear, it's still there. You just aren't moving.

We disagree on this point. Reeling means turning a reel and that implies motion. If you're not moving how can you be reeling? And the same is true with the Yang terminology of drawing silk. Not a big deal to me.


Appledog wrote:If you stop moving the silk reeling doesn't disappear, it's still there. You just aren't moving. This is why Yang style can still have ward-off without manifesting it physically, but it does not mean that straight energy is spiral energy.

But if ward-off (peng) is done correctly it should have peng as the core jin and that's true for any posture. Do you disagree?
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:55 pm

I had a I chuan teacher who would do a silk reeling type movement at the start of each form
It was very subtle
I would do it along with him
He saw me one day and asked who taught me this as it was a secret
I said, no one you do it each time
So things can be carried on without most people seeing them
We have a lot of things we do that I tell my people
You must do this but those observing you should not notice
Big/small are just aspects of training
I was teaching some beginners Chinna as an introduction to application
The partner grabbed and we were going into play the pipa
They were all using too much force
I said just release forward before you move into play the pipa
This is silk reeling internally
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:06 pm

There are big circles and small circles; the same for spirals. That's the point.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Appledog on Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:09 pm

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:17 pm

Appledog wrote:Yeah I am pretty sure we disagree, I'm having a difficult time understanding your terminology. Does your way of applying this peng work in push hands? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences applying this in push hands, I think that would solve some of the difficulties we are having with terminology.

I think of peng jin as the core jin as an individual being relaxed and connected. In taiji there is a saying along the lines of one part of the body moves the whole body moves. That's what I mean by connected. If you don't have this then you're just doing choreography. Without this, in push hands, you'd either collapse or have to resort to using local muscle and then you'd be wrestling, not doing push hands.

If you look at my definition of peng jin as the core jin you'll note that it includes being relaxed, fang song. You can be fang song without having peng, but you can't have peng without fang song. I define silk reeling as moving while maintaining peng jin. So you can have peng jin (as the core jin) without silk reeling, but you can't have silk reeling without peng jin.

My definitions.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby Appledog on Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:57 am

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: On excessive movement in taijiquan practice

Postby robert on Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:03 pm

Appledog wrote:That just means it's internal, not that it is Taijiquan. You could be talking about any number of arts. For example below you seem to present song as the core jing and not peng.

I've been talking about peng jin as the core jin and as such I would say it's equivalent to neijin. What is your definition of peng jin as the core jin and how do you feel it differentiates taiji from xinyi and bagua?

Appledog wrote:I'm almost certain you're talking about opening the joints and not peng, because you said you can be fang song without having peng but you cannot have peng without being song.

The idea of opening the joints might describe part of what I'm talking about, but you have to be relaxed and connected as well. I would have to see what you mean by opening the joints.

Appledog wrote:I'm almost certain you're talking about opening the joints and not peng, because you said you can be fang song without having peng but you cannot have peng without being song. Therefore you are saying song, which comes mainly out of standing and other practice is a prerequisite to peng. So why don't we just say that song is the core jing of taijiquan?

The idea of peng jin as the core jin being a fundamental skill is not my idea ;) I've just been expressing my understanding of what that means.
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