robert wrote:Appledog wrote:If it's not your idea then don't hold on to tightly to it. A lot of people will say something like this, but it is based on a misunderstanding as I have shown. You should probably double check that FZW quote, are you sure it is saying what you think it is saying?
I have an open mind, but the quote seems pretty clear to me.
YY: Does this mean there are two definitions of peng? One is the upward direction of the four side energy, while the other is a broader concept, the expanding energy concept?
FZQ: It is OK to differentiate; to give two definitions. One is the upward direction of the four-sided energy (peng/lu/ji/an), the other is yi(4) qi(4) gu(3)dang(4). [Gudang has a very subtle meaning. Here it is used to describe the outward expansion/movement/vibration of yi and qi.]
Every movement is guided by yi and qi movement. If you don't have yi qi gudang, you collapse. Even if your limbs do not move, you need to have yi and qi. When your intention arrives, your qi will arrive. Movement will follow naturally and your force will arrive.
I'm not trying to sell this idea and if you interpret it differently that's fine, but what he is saying seems clear.
Yeah it's clear, as I said, both ways can be interpreted as being correct. Thats what he says too. He says it is OK to give two definitions; one is my definition (as part of peng-lu-ji-an) and the other is the fill-up outward expansion.
The problem is the second explanation is kind of a mistake. What makes it weirder is that there is a name for this (I checked with 2 of my sifus to be sure -- one of whom is a student of FZQ and one who is a student of FZW, both of whom I think you quoted) and it is not peng. So it is anyone's guess how this trend got started. My speculation, when people have been going down the wrong path for quite some time, they tend to try and map whatever experiences they have had into the tai chi classics/13 postures/etc, never assuming that they could make a mistake because "something is happening". They get attached to this "something" (whatever it is, there are several we could discuss) and they don't want to let it go because it is "something" and that means they're "making progress". And they are, if they could learn to recognize that "good moves and bad moves are next to each other", i.e. what is and is not a correct "something" is progress because you know where to look but not necessarily what to look at. Or might not have the eyes to see it. Etc.
So sure, you can say that this expansive relaxation and stretching and whatever is peng, but that is a form of humility, you might as well call it peng assuming you are talking about the system in absence of it's politics and difficulty finding a good teacher. FZQ has also said he has chi bolts flying around inside his body, but he (by the way) never explained how that fits into training either. So you need to realize that this is just a stepping stone, and grab the feeling, grab the energy, but maybe forget about what it is called. Its not important to know what it is called, actually, that is an academic exercise maybe for teachers and historians. Calling it peng will just cause needless confusion. Why would anyone want to do that?
Now once again the point of all this and why I want to be so careful is because of the title of the thread.
If you have peng ala peng lu ji an, you will not have excessive movement in taiji practice.
If you have peng ala expansive/framework/song-qing jing energy, this will allow for excessive movement in taiji practice.
Therefore song-qing jing is not a core skill of taiji despite being a core skill of neijia
in general.