Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

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Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:01 am

I am trying to develop a model for the Hun Yuan Zhuang, and I think collecting a list of sensations from practitioners and possible explanations for their sensations will be very useful. Please share your experiences here and maybe we can verify some of them with other practitioners.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby everything on Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:25 am

What do you mean a model?

Some sensations:
warmth
sinking
fluid kind of flow
electrical kind of flow
fullness
heaviness
relaxation
connectedness
calm
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby charles on Tue May 02, 2017 6:24 am

For what practical purpose are you creating a "model" of the practice? How will that model help students or practitioners progress? (Put another way, what is the value of creating/having such a model?)

How do subjective sensations and their posited causes help support such a model? In the end, it is, traditionally, all "qi" and the movement thereof.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Tue May 02, 2017 7:19 am

An input-process-output model, and in this thread I am hoping to identify some workable output variables.

It is too early to suggest anything before we came up with any workable output variable. And the aim is certainly clear in coming up with some findings to help practitioners to improve as suggested.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby yeniseri on Tue May 02, 2017 11:17 am

Yeung wrote:I am trying to develop a model for the Hun Yuan Zhuang, and I think collecting a list of sensations from practitioners and possible explanations for their sensations will be very useful. Please share your experiences here and maybe we can verify some of them with other practitioners.


The sensation is not that much different from any activity. The only distinction is that this hyperemia occurs much faster and is more consistent with yoga and taiji /qigong related exercise routines.
BTW: There is a chemical/hormonal underlying factor in hyperemia and that means that these sensation in qigong/yangshengong will have the same underlying process
http://www.cvphysiology.com/Blood%20Flow/BF005
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Strange on Tue May 02, 2017 6:31 pm

charles wrote:For what practical purpose are you creating a "model" of the practice? How will that model help students or practitioners progress? (Put another way, what is the value of creating/having such a model?)

How do subjective sensations and their posited causes help support such a model? In the end, it is, traditionally, all "qi" and the movement thereof.


maybe for gathering info to create a yardstick
so he can go to another forum and "measure" others
and show what an expert he is
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Wed May 03, 2017 3:19 pm

hyperemia:

Heart rate might not be a sensation, as it is measurable but not workable because the subject in a Hun Yuan Zhuang should have a stable heart rate as in any static posture.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Wed May 03, 2017 3:29 pm

The sensations of Qi 气 or energy should be interesting, any subjective description?
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby everything on Wed May 03, 2017 5:25 pm

I listed a few
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Appledog on Wed May 03, 2017 6:02 pm

Yeung wrote:I am trying to develop a model for the Hun Yuan Zhuang, and I think collecting a list of sensations from practitioners and possible explanations for their sensations will be very useful. Please share your experiences here and maybe we can verify some of them with other practitioners.


Why don't you ask someone who is a teacher to help you?

I'm just sitting here wondering, basically, what you are asking for is to get an academic explanation of how to teach internal arts. Not only how to do it but ho to teach it, because for example you are looking for all of the symptoms someone can come up with from doing ZZ. The kind of stuff that even a teacher might not know off the top of his head, but could come up with if asked the right questions, or if he saw it in a student.

I think such a model is important for a number of reasons though. But what you are really looking for is someone who can map the theory onto actual practice (and practice back onto the theory). Such people are really rare. Even some of the people here who have said they were training in all the right things for 20, 30 years, they still can't do this.

Are you sure you're not asking for too much here? Maybe we could put a price on it, would you be willing to hire a consultant?
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Patrick on Thu May 04, 2017 3:19 am

In Yu Yong Nian´s book " Zhan Zhuang and the search of wu" you will find a description of sensations/feelings. However, how objective this is, is doubtable.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby yeniseri on Thu May 04, 2017 7:46 am

Patrick wrote:In Yu Yong Nian´s book " Zhan Zhuang and the search of wu" you will find a description of sensations/feelings. However, how objective this is, is doubtable.


If read carefully, you will see that the objective criteria of >2 degrees increase of temperature, along with increase of felling i.e. hyperemia of warmth, slight sweating, increased intestinal motility (hence the Spleen/stomach model for benefit of zhanzhuang). Objecive critera is usually measyrable and Yu Yong Nian's profession as a dentist, (if I recall) does a far better job of detailing some benefit for zhuangfa.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby yeniseri on Thu May 04, 2017 7:50 am

Yeung wrote:hyperemia:

Heart rate might not be a sensation, as it is measurable but not workable because the subject in a Hun Yuan Zhuang should have a stable heart rate as in any static posture.


Heart rate will differ based on degree of health status, disease, and "depth of stance' but it is rarely "stable". Perhaps its range will be stable as opposed to single digit stable.
On the other hand, one may not know the heart rate number but one can feel the increased pumping or the oppressed chest stagnation, or the difficulty breathing..a sensation that is subjectively felt!
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby everything on Thu May 04, 2017 10:32 am

All of the sensations I listed are not too difficult (AFAIK) to start to feel, but it requires patience and actual work (at relaxation).

For the objectivity part, this is not qigong, but in Psych 101, we did an experiment with all the 100-200 students in the hall. We took our HR. Then, we were given about 1 minute to think whatever to elevate our HR. Pretty much everyone could do this. This is INCREDIBLY easy to do. Then we were given about 1-2 minutes to do whatever to lower our HR. Pretty much easy to do as well. This was all objective to the extent that it can be (self-reported data, not double-blind). The moral is we have much more conscious control over some unconscious processes in the whole mind/body thing. MA nerds should already be way more in tune to this.

The qigong stuff is analogous but way more subtle and it takes some time to really even feel sensations. IF people actually bothered to do the work (I get the feeling even on RSF that no one bothers because it's kinda boring, hard to believe, etc.), then you could try to take a big survey like Yeung wants to do and just write down "here's what 100 people reported". But none of those are outputs or results. If you wanted to then record blood pressure, HR, etc., maybe that would be interesting, maybe not. You're not going to be able to record "fantastic peng and the sensations that came before" or something like that, even here on RSF. Just ain't gonna happen. MAYBE your teacher could help you, but statistical probability is insanely low.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Thu May 04, 2017 10:38 am

everything wrote:I listed a few

Thanks, may you like to comment on the following:

Relaxation, sinking, and calm can be classified as input variables and the outcome is heaviness, or the process of transfer weight or the body.

Increase of muscle intensity by stretching can generate warmth, but at a static muscle intensity temperature might be static as well.

Stretching the joints can produce a sense of connectedness, and that sounds like a input variable as well. And this is closely associated with the sense of fullness which is something like the whole body is expanding.

If one follows the movement of inhale and exhale, there might be a sense of flow in going out and coming in of energy, are you saying this is fluid kind of flow?

I am not sure about electrical kind of flow but it is possible to generate static electricity to cause a spark.
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