Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby everything on Thu May 04, 2017 2:31 pm

Hmm, it doesn't really have to involve movement (although good posture, song, holding the proverbial ball, etc. helps). For your fluid/electrical question, no, I'm saying the sensation subjectively feels like there is "fluid" or "electrical flow" "moving" or circulating inside you --- not necessarily tied to breathing and nothing to do with static. Don't really think of skeletomuscular or cardiorespiratory systems, necessarily. Obviously you want relaxed breathing, good posture, relaxed everything, but focusing analytically on separate systems doesn't seem particularly helpful, either practically or theoretically as far as I can tell (and I'm just another dog on the internet with no special powers/skills/teaching/etc. so take everything I just said FWIW: my $0.02). Other than that it could be called "qi" of some sort, it doesn't really make any particular sense. Maybe that's why a lot of schools say "ignore these sensations: they don't matter" from their "practical" "fighting" point of view.

As far as "outputs" go, it could be interesting (academically/theoretically) to look at biofeedback devices with measurable outputs and self-reported sensations as "inputs". Maybe people have already done that.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Fri May 05, 2017 1:27 am

(a) noticing sensations of warmth, tingling, and pulsation which were relaxing

http://cs.oswego.edu/~jferris/psy290/3MeditatNurse.PDF

Abstract

Given the current necessity of retaining qualified nurses, a self-care program consisting of Yoga, Tai Chi, Meditation classes, and Reiki healing sessions was designed for a university-based hospital. The effectiveness of these interventions was evaluated using self-care journals and analyzed using a Heideggerian phenomenological approach. Outcomes of the self-care classes described by nurses included: (a) noticing sensations of warmth, tingling, and pulsation which were relaxing, (b) becoming aware of an enhanced problem solving ability, and (c) noticing an increased ability to focus on patient needs. Hospitals willing to invest in self-care options for nurses can anticipate patient and work related benefits.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Fri May 05, 2017 1:32 am

aura:
An invisible emanation or field of energy believed to radiate from a person or object.
1. The pulsating field of energy which surrounds living things.
2. An energy field perceived as surrounding the human body which aura analysts describe as a cloud of light that radiates from a person, rather like the phosphorescence of some sea creatures.

Pulsate: expand and contract rhythmically
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Fri May 05, 2017 1:32 am

Floating and imbalance
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby everything on Fri May 05, 2017 7:11 am

I think the nurse study is some indication that even without particularly trying to notice any sensations, people may notice sensations incidentally, and more importantly get some benefit (focus, calm, relaxation, centered-ness) from these activities.

Sensations are probably not the point, but since it's your thread topic, here are some "internal" (inside the body) sensations that are very normal for anyone to feel:
- heart beat, heart beating faster
- breathing, air filling lungs, out of breath, blocked airways/congestion
- thirst, quenching thirst
- sore throat
- hunger, stomach growling, fullness
- constipation, nausea, bowel movement, movement before bowel movement
- indigestion, digestion
- nervous energy, jitteriness, excitedness, anger as all over body feeling, drowsiness, sleepiness, calm, relaxation
- leg falling asleep, hands/feet cold, hands/feet getting warmed back up

Normally we don't pay attention to them, but they are tangible and unique: each one doesn't feel like another. They can feel faint or strong. In the beginning when doing qigong, reiki, yoga, etc., people may feel warmth and calm or relaxation: feelings from those last two bullets. Those are probably the most "normal" (feelings from ordinary life) so easier to notice, but they are kind of "101" (can be experienced in a few minutes with some instruction). Other sensations such as "pulsating" are just as tangible and unique, but really different from these usual body feelings. Many of the other sensations probably take longer than 3 months to notice/feel. You can't really force it, but at some point you probably become a better listener of your body.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby yeniseri on Fri May 05, 2017 9:36 am

Yeung wrote:aura:
An invisible emanation or field of energy believed to radiate from a person or object.
1. The pulsating field of energy which surrounds living things.
2. An energy field perceived as surrounding the human body which aura analysts describe as a cloud of light that radiates from a person, rather like the phosphorescence of some sea creatures.

Pulsate: expand and contract rhythmically


when you stand in wujizhuang, with hands at qihai/dantian, it may not be an "aura" but one does feel the magnetic/pulsing nature of objective criteria though part of the "sensation/feeling/subjective" experience. Is it
a. hands
b. qihai/dantian
c. mind (awareness)
d. synchronicity of heart/mind (xin)
e. all of the above

Is it hand energy, qihai energy......
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Appledog on Fri May 05, 2017 1:33 pm

yeniseri wrote:when you stand in wujizhuang, with hands at qihai/dantian, it may not be an "aura" but one does feel the magnetic/pulsing nature of objective criteria though part of the "sensation/feeling/subjective" experience. Is it
a. hands
b. qihai/dantian
c. mind (awareness)
d. synchronicity of heart/mind (xin)
e. all of the above

Is it hand energy, qihai energy......



Good question. The difficulty in answering it is really that the experiences go beyond a to d and extend down the full gamut of the alphabet. Also, the sensations are not all compatable with each other, some are mutually exclusive, and most people won't get more than a few sensations and even then only in the beginning. After the beginning one is 'in the door' so to speak and things begin to get more streamlined. A while after that there is basically only one path to follow. But approaching things like this from the front end will be very difficult, I woldn't even know where to begin to answer your question because everyone is different, everyone will experience different things until they settle down and get focused on the art, so to speak. Until that happens the cold will feel hot, the hot will feel cold, and the old injuries will have to come back for a while.

Isn't it just better to follow a few general principles like "relax", "breathe", and just wait out the beginner's period of ~6 months?
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Yeung on Sat May 06, 2017 9:37 am

There is the action of Qì hai tiē mìng mén 气海贴命门 (Qi Hai CV6 adhered to or moving towards Ming Men GV4) which is result of diaphragmatic breathing. My mentor Lieutenant General Sun Paokung (Sun Baogang孙宝刚1909-1990) taught me this technique. It works but it is taught by the word of the mouth and I cannot find any written reference to it. I came across the the facebook page of 台灣古傳陳式太極拳 Taiwan's Chen Style Taijiquan, but they only ideating Qi Hai touches Ming Men.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Appledog on Sat May 06, 2017 6:45 pm

Just some thoughts, not intended to apply to anything solid.

Yeung wrote:There is the action of Qì hai tiē mìng mén 气海贴命门 (Qi Hai CV6 adhered to or moving towards Ming Men GV4) which is result of diaphragmatic breathing. My mentor Lieutenant General Sun Paokung (Sun Baogang孙宝刚1909-1990) taught me this technique. It works but it is taught by the word of the mouth and I cannot find any written reference to it. I came across the the facebook page of 台灣古傳陳式太極拳 Taiwan's Chen Style Taijiquan, but they only ideating Qi Hai touches Ming Men.


Opening this gate is important and it's one of the first big doors in tai chi, and likely other arts. I don't know about any secret breathing techniques, per se. There are all kinds of chi kung and what not which can help you open this gate. Even just doing tai chi with a good teacher you can get sensations in that area.

The thing about this stuff is that there are many ways to open such an area. Someone might know some secret breathing techniques and someone else might know another way. In this case I would say I wouldn't even care to learn any secret breathing techniques because the method I know is more fun for kids to learn (it's movement based). Each method has its ups and downs. Im just saying this because I believe the time for secret techniques is over. We face a different problem today. Today we have too much information and not enough practice. The internet has given us all the answers but we can't seem to find the time to get it all done.

I had a discussion with a Yang style guy whom I must say, hadn't improved very much in the 15 years since we last met. He couldn't even open his mingmen. We discussed silk reeling, chi, neigong, and things like this. It amazed me, he was so secretive about what he knew despite not being very good. It was an anomaly. Eventually I got tired of his dodging and just asked him how precisely did he train this that or the other thing, and he would tell me not to ask about his secret techniques. I should practice the way I knew and don't ask him about what he was taught. Because he had all these secret chi kung practices from his masters. He was very arrogant about it. That attitude and the lack of skill it produces is not worth it in this day and age. There is more than one way to open mingmen. I think what we need is more along the lines of an understanding of what mingmen is, precisely why it needs to be opened, how, what the result is, etc. and only then attach a few perfunctory exercises to drive the point home. The reality is that pretty much all schools teach something in this direction. It's just that they might not be able to explain it in such detail.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby bruised on Sat May 06, 2017 8:05 pm

everything has listed many of the sensations and another i'd add would be "tension"

I have studied my own tensions and can break it down to sensing, understanding, control, transfer, balance

most people "stretch" their muscles incorrectly. most people don't know that they are hyper extending joints by way of the common stretch methods. I have yet to develop an articulate way to describe my method. it involves:
-sense by pin pointing where discomfort is (by way of relaxing and being sensitive enough to feel at the very start of the pain sensation in a range of motion)
-understanding what is causing the discomfort (this takes knowledge and experience). I like following the tension from the area of pain along anatomy trains or smaller "orbits." most of the time, the cause of pain is on opposite side of point of pain on other part of the orbit!!!!!!!!
-control the tension by mastering the involved muscles of the orbit. you want to expand the orbit and find out where there is too much tensions and where it is slacked and where it might be impinged. usually multiple orbits involved in a point of pain. its like untying a knot, got to have a sort of order of operation to things or else, just tugging on tensions could lead to worst tension build ups or injuries or worse. very common that many imbalances are factors to specific pain or tension.
-transfer the tensions out of small systems into larger systems where you can spread the tension across whole body pathways (anatomy trains) achieving harmony in that orbit and effectively balancing the tension in your body (i think it maybe more accurate to say balance tensions, not release?)

my tensions are what guide my standing meditation. my standing meditation posture is the pile stance (i imagine my body is a pile of rocks or balls i have to balance... 7 pearls?). I stand in this posture and try to find "neutral position" in all my major joints by way of paying attention muscles subtle "stretch" sensations as well as pins or pangs of discomfort or pain or by encountering of impingement through motion. peal the onion layers of distractions and ego then, I connect to breath (breath here means "control-ness" or "connectedness" of whole body). What i try to do is consciously relax as many muscles as possible while maintaining the balance i have in mind. when i reach a sort of hemostasis, i body scan for more muscles to relax. it is amazing how many muscles are flexed for "no reason". many times i will relax a unfamiliar muscles or joint and will start to feel tension or pain immediately. this is how i "hunt" my tensions. this tells me that my body created a "lock" to protect from painful sensations.(locked "body chambers") If i relax just enough, to the edge where the pain just begins, I can explore the dynamics of the system or "orbit" in question. (balanced orbit=unlocked body chamber)

when your body scanning skills develop, it is like your consciousness is a pin point that can travel anywhere inside your body. I use external palpation and body wiggles and taichi movements to activate these specific physical paths (tendon, fascia network connected to breath and movement). to me this is exploring the inner realm. once you understand the systems at play, alot of power and coordination force can be developed inside the body and then transferred out.

also the goal is to release as much inner tensions out of your body so your mind and body is free to sense more and express more efficiently. I believe that masters who develop kung fu forms do so in a manner that allows tensions to be balanced across the whole body and for inner body awareness to develop. that is the true purpose of all the "funny" forms in kung fu. of course each of the poses or forms can be made practical for some sort of situation as well.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby bruised on Sat May 06, 2017 8:13 pm

Appledog wrote:Just some thoughts, not intended to apply to anything solid.

Yeung wrote:There is the action of Qì hai tiē mìng mén 气海贴命门 (Qi Hai CV6 adhered to or moving towards Ming Men GV4) which is result of diaphragmatic breathing. My mentor Lieutenant General Sun Paokung (Sun Baogang孙宝刚1909-1990) taught me this technique. It works but it is taught by the word of the mouth and I cannot find any written reference to it. I came across the the facebook page of 台灣古傳陳式太極拳 Taiwan's Chen Style Taijiquan, but they only ideating Qi Hai touches Ming Men.


Opening this gate is important and it's one of the first big doors in tai chi, and likely other arts. I don't know about any secret breathing techniques, per se. There are all kinds of chi kung and what not which can help you open this gate. Even just doing tai chi with a good teacher you can get sensations in that area.


i believe i just started to open up this "gate of life/wisdom" 2 days ago. this info and picture was help ful http://www.normanallan.com/Misc/mingmen.htm

such a interesting part of the body. the start point of fetal development, the center of breath, the top of the lower half of the body, what your upper body sits on. i could go on about it. I've been relating all my tensions to this mobius strip loop of muscles and find that it is a great main reference point of the body.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby yeniseri on Sat May 06, 2017 10:24 pm

Yeung wrote:There is the action of Qì hai tiē mìng mén 气海贴命门 (Qi Hai CV6 adhered to or moving towards Ming Men GV4) which is result of diaphragmatic breathing. My mentor Lieutenant General Sun Paokung (Sun Baogang孙宝刚1909-1990) taught me this technique. It works but it is taught by the word of the mouth and I cannot find any written reference to it. I came across the the facebook page of 台灣古傳陳式太極拳 Taiwan's Chen Style Taijiquan, but they only ideating Qi Hai touches Ming Men.


I can see in a "mechanistic" manner that qihai and ming are in the "same plane"/occupy the same space as 2 sides of the same coin. Structurally, muscle weakness/sensor motor amnesia (SMA) become moreso due to lack of integrity (muscular/neurological/ssensorimotor. I agree that sensations are 1 part but not endpoint for whole body training.
As example, weight training fundamentals are great for actual weightlifting but its concepts can surely assist swimmers, runners and other who integrate that 1 part to better their conditioning and health/wellness. In the same vein as senior/older people using weights to supplement other facets of muscle building but not to the extent of them benchpressing x pounds
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby Appledog on Sun May 07, 2017 1:15 pm

bruised wrote:everything has listed many of the sensations and another i'd add would be "tension"


I liked your post, yeah thats a good sensation, some teachers would say you are in the door already with sensations like that. Of course on a forum and with imprecise, nonstandard terms I would have questions. Like, what you mean by multiple orbits, expanding the orbits, etc.

bruised wrote:my tensions are what guide my standing meditation. my standing meditation posture is the pile stance (i imagine my body is a bile of rocks or balls i have to balance).


Would it surprise you to learn that most of the 'secret' tai chi qigong exercises are called 'tension' exercises? You hold postures and perform moves with certain very specific tensions and relaxations. There are certain tensions you can do in standing pole and in the form too. But you wouldn't see them if you were watching from afar. I think such a thing is your level now, if you can do it (or find someone who can do it).
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby robert on Sun May 07, 2017 1:20 pm

Appledog wrote:The thing about this stuff is that there are many ways to open such an area.

I agree.


Appledog wrote:... Someone might know some secret breathing techniques and someone else might know another way. In this case I would say I wouldn't even care to learn any secret breathing techniques because the method I know is more fun for kids to learn (it's movement based). Each method has its ups and downs. Im just saying this because I believe the time for secret techniques is over. We face a different problem today. Today we have too much information and not enough practice. The internet has given us all the answers but we can't seem to find the time to get it all done.

I wanted to point out that breathing techniques are a type of movement based technique. When talking about abdominal breathing methods (normal/reverse) people point out that the waist expands and contracts - that is movement; in contrast to visualization methods.
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Re: Sensations in Hun Yuan Zhuang 浑元桩

Postby bruised on Mon May 08, 2017 2:31 pm

Appledog wrote:Of course on a forum and with imprecise, nonstandard terms I would have questions. Like, what you mean by multiple orbits, expanding the orbits, etc.

bruised wrote:my tensions are what guide my standing meditation. my standing meditation posture is the pile stance (i imagine my body is a pile of rocks or balls i have to balance... 7 pearls?).


Would it surprise you to learn that most of the 'secret' tai chi qigong exercises are called 'tension' exercises? You hold postures and perform moves with certain very specific tensions and relaxations. There are certain tensions you can do in standing pole and in the form too. But you wouldn't see them if you were watching from afar. I think such a thing is your level now, if you can do it (or find someone who can do it).

Appledog wrote:
I liked your post, yeah thats a good sensation, some teachers would say you are in the door already with sensations like that. Of course on a forum and with imprecise, nonstandard terms I would have questions. Like, what you mean by multiple orbits, expanding the orbits, etc.

Would it surprise you to learn that most of the 'secret' tai chi qigong exercises are called 'tension' exercises? You hold postures and perform moves with certain very specific tensions and relaxations. There are certain tensions you can do in standing pole and in the form too. But you wouldn't see them if you were watching from afar. I think such a thing is your level now, if you can do it (or find someone who can do it).


I'm only a bit surprised! you are totally right about the the nonstandard terms. what led me to this forum was these sensation. what i'm come to realize is that i've stumbled upon the inner body tension systems "on my own", which i now understand is a foundation for the internal arts. I'm seeking local teacher at the moment for further knowledge and to standardize my language on Neijing / Neigong ( http://www.wudangdanpai.com/ ) I think such things are my level now, but very informally.

to me orbits: isolated movement systems or complexes. body cogs, chakras, dantians, tendon pathways. these all talk about the similar ideas IMO. mental divisions of the body to isolate systems for development and alignment.

expand orbit: ideally orbits , anatomy trains, tendon pathways, etc should be smooth and aligned. but due to tensions or injuries they can be zigzaged, twisted, pulled, kinked, impinged. i imagine a crinkled loop. expanding the orbit means to physically align and expand by breath the muscles and body parts involved in the orbit. expanding the orbit slowly straightens out some of these imbalances. this first requires being able to isolate these orbits, which first requires being aware of the orbit.

multiple orbits: for example look at the spiral anatomy train lines. I can consider one complete anatomy line and its antagonist as a big orbit. people can have disfunction in orbits due to tensions. these tensions can (will) lie at a junction of two or more orbits. or when looking at a movement of the body, one can study which orbits are involved in a certain action.

internal martials arts is the dissection, examination, understanding and mastery internal movement. things that happen even before anything externally visible happens. thats why standing meditation is big part of my practice. orbits are just a way to organise and break down related tension systems

do you have further reading on these techniques? PM me? thanks!
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