Hold The Line

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Hold The Line

Postby charles on Tue May 16, 2017 7:39 am

rojcewiczj wrote:... all movement needs to be based on a relationship to the pelvic structure because the pelvic structure is solid, heavy, and central all by virtue of its construction not by its movement.


I don't know whether or not that is true, but I do know that in at least some of the "internal" arts, power and movement are not based on the use of the pelvis shown in the Wing Chun video you posted. I'm not saying it is wrong, only that it is different.
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Re: Hold The Line

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed May 17, 2017 7:29 am

What though is the use of the pelvis? It is only to keep every movement within the energetic frame of the pelvic structure. When this is done, no matter what the movement is, on contact it will feel as if the person has not moved. It will feel as if your pushing directly into that persons hip bones, regardless of where your touching. These are the movements of non-movement, when the structure of the pelvic girdle adjusts along with the movements of the various parts of the body, so that the power remains a solid, structural power and not a muscular dynamic power. Hands Pushing forward feel like a mountain moving, hands pushing upward feel like the ground is rising, hands pushing downward feel like the sky is falling, hands turning side to side like hurricane winds. What is alignment about? Alignment is when the connection to the pelvic structure is such that, on contact, there is functionally no space between the extremity and the pelvic girdle. Once the Pelvic girdle is connected, any movement of the extremity must relate to an adjustment of the pelvic structure in such a way that no change occurs on the level of energy through the structure. Because it is the pelvic girdle which possesses the desired static qualities, it is essential that it is this structure within the body to which we connect and from which we govern our actions, so as to simulate the absence of actions.
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Re: Hold The Line

Postby charles on Wed May 17, 2017 8:49 am

rojcewiczj wrote:What though is the use of the pelvis? It is only to keep every movement within the energetic frame of the pelvic structure.


Sorry, I have no idea what is the meaning of "keep every movement with the energetic frame of the pelvic structure".

Regardless, your response doesn't seem to address the point I made, that the use of the pelvis shown in the Wing Chun video you posted is different than how the pelvis is used in at least some of the "internal" martial arts.

The body is comprised of a number of (semi) rigid linkages that are connected at joints, the whole of which can be arranged to form a chain. The chain of linkages are connected via connective tissues. These tissues can allow one linkage to move relative to another, or hold the linkages in place, one relative to the next. The "pelvis" is part of that connected chain of linkages. Without the involvement of other parts of the chain, "the pelvis" is unsupported. It is one part of a number of parts that form a structure. One might argue that "the pelvis" is more important than other parts of the chain, or the structure it forms, but one can't ignore the rest of the chain. "Internal" martial arts usually stress the importance of getting those individual linkages all working together, often from the point of application to the ground.

As an aside, when you refer to "the pelvis" are you discussing the hip joints, the musculature of the abdomen, the lower spine or something else?
Last edited by charles on Wed May 17, 2017 9:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hold The Line

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu May 18, 2017 7:27 am

charles wrote:
rojcewiczj wrote:What though is the use of the pelvis? It is only to keep every movement within the energetic frame of the pelvic structure.


Sorry, I have no idea what is the meaning of "keep every movement with the energetic frame of the pelvic structure".

Regardless, your response doesn't seem to address the point I made, that the use of the pelvis shown in the Wing Chun video you posted is different than how the pelvis is used in at least some of the "internal" martial arts.

The body is comprised of a number of (semi) rigid linkages that are connected at joints, the whole of which can be arranged to form a chain. The chain of linkages are connected via connective tissues. These tissues can allow one linkage to move relative to another, or hold the linkages in place, one relative to the next. The "pelvis" is part of that connected chain of linkages. Without the involvement of other parts of the chain, "the pelvis" is unsupported. It is one part of a number of parts that form a structure. One might argue that "the pelvis" is more important than other parts of the chain, or the structure it forms, but one can't ignore the rest of the chain. "Internal" martial arts usually stress the importance of getting those individual linkages all working together, often from the point of application to the ground.

As an aside, when you refer to "the pelvis" are you discussing the hip joints, the musculature of the abdomen, the lower spine or something else?


When I say pelvic structure, I mean the bones above the hip joint which form a sort of bowl around the base of the spine. "keep every movement within* the energetic frame of the pelvic structure" means that the pelvic structure is the key reference point for the energy of the whole body. Without that bony structure your fleshy abdomen would have no power and would be reduced to a sack of guts. What ever movements you make of the parts, it is by the movement of this pelvic bowl, which organizes and directs the energy of the torso, that those smaller linkages acquire support. The Pelvic structure holds the heavy padlock by which all other linkages are anchored. When standing, the pelvis utilizes the legs to stabilize the body. When sitting it does so without the legs. If I want to crush down on top of my opponent, why would I try to connect to the ground through my feet? No, I will simply link the action of my arms to my pelvis with which I will crush my entire weight downwards. Their are numerous occasions where, power from ground is not practical, there are no occasions where involvement of the pelvis is not practical, even if that involvement is simple to remain balanced. Many actions are accomplished simply by a turn of the pelvis. Confusion often occurs when the hip joint is emphasized over the hip bone, those bone fins which form part of the pelvic bowl. The hip joints must be free to rotate for the sake of the pelvic structure but the power is not from the joints, it is from the center of mass made mechanically expressible through the bony structure of the pelvis. Another confusion is when the center of mass itself, the fleshy lower abdomen is overly emphasized. Again, a sack of guts has little power in this world besides weighing the scale at the butcher shop.
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Re: Hold The Line

Postby charles on Thu May 18, 2017 8:59 am

Thanks for the clarification.
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