這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Sat May 27, 2017 9:42 pm

High level CMA in action ::) ::) ::)





Ian
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:22 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Sun May 28, 2017 1:38 am

johnwang wrote:
C.J.W. wrote:Wouldn't you say your teacher, GM Chang, was one of the top CMA guys who could fight? ;)

When GM Chang was young, he traveled to

- Mongol to test his skill against Mongolian wrestlers.
- Beijing foreign district to test his skill against Judo guys.

This is why I don't understand how can any "top CMA guy" be "less public".


This was one of my teachers from long ago....he was not so public
and I would say among some the top guys in his field. He told me they used to go up
into the hills and hunt down the N Koreans during and after the war,
part of the things they used to do in training was to kill pigs barehanded testing different mantis hands
on the pigs....an interesting teacher in that it was kind of dangerous sparing with him.
If he slipped or forgot, out of reflex the person sparring with him would get hurt...


His name is also romanized as:
Park Chi Moon.
Shifu Park Chil Sung was born in 1930 in what is now North Korea. He first began studying gong fu within his family at a very young age (around 7 or 8 years old). He later traveled around the Korean peninsula studying under any master he could find. At that time he met his main master, shifu Lin Ping Jiang.

During the Korean war he along with most other young men from his home town were recruited to fight for the south as guerilla fighters not actually associated with the formal army. After the war he was able to relocate to the south and has not seen his family since then
.
Shifu Park Chil Sung worked for some time after the war for the South Korean equivalent of the American CIA, training in hand to hand combat.
He has been teaching at Camp Casey Tongdushon (a U.S. Army post just south of the DMZ - north of Seoul) since the 70's, with many of his students being U.S. Military personnel. In the year 2000 he was still alive and teaching in Korea

http://www.oocities.org/mantiscave/parkchil.htm
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 28, 2017 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6128
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun May 28, 2017 4:04 am

Comparing MMA and Leitai bouts is like comparing a pug with a wolf. People were seriously injured or died all the time. Anything was fair game. Plus, falling off is a pretty easy way to get injured in itself. It was literally life or death, not win or lose. I respect MMA, but let's get real.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1661
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun May 28, 2017 4:06 am

Every time that someone criticises China in a newspaper the entire country has to formally apologise. China is like a little girl in a hissy fit, very childish. It doesn't matter what the truth is.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1661
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Sun May 28, 2017 4:44 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Comparing MMA and Leitai bouts is like comparing a pug with a wolf.


Where did i compare them?

Quite simply, you said CMAs weren't designed for competition.

I pointed out that China has a long history of martial arts competitions.

That's all.
Ian
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:22 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Niall Keane on Sun May 28, 2017 5:21 am

Regarding the infamous Nanjing Leitai tournament of 1929... a participant Zhao Daoxin had this to say:

Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either kocked out or scared out of the competition.



"There were several people from Tianjin competing in the Hangzhou Leitai tournament, one of whom as Zhao Daoxin Zhao, only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, managed to achieve 13th place, and out of the top 30 ranked fighters, the vast majority were around 30 years old.
Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. He was known for the ferocity of his attacks, and was called ‘the Lu Xun [5] of martial arts’ for his willingness to experiment, to separate the wheat from the chaff. In the 1980s, Zhao Daoxin (by that time already in his 80s) taught what he had learnt to Zhang Hongjun. Based on Zhao’s teaching and his own hard training, Zhang went on to become a nationally famous San Da fighter. He inherited Zhao’s ‘heavy’ punches and kicks."
Last edited by Niall Keane on Sun May 28, 2017 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Steve James on Sun May 28, 2017 7:31 am

Um, are there any vids of illegal bare-knuckle kung fu in China? There are plenty from the UK and the States. Some of the guys have big names and have even risen from the street to the pros. It's a tradition going back a couple of centuries.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16246
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Sun May 28, 2017 7:14 pm

Isn't it telling that in the same part of the world, in a country that also has a history of bloody warfare, they're now producing fighters like these?





What about Russia? Again, history of bloody warfare, large talent base of tough, capable fighters.



Which countries' martial arts seem more robust? We haven't even left Asia...

It's quite sad that, with so much hatred toward Xu, plus the huge cash prize incentive, NOT ONE fighter has stepped up in defense of TCMAs.

Instead, we get standard thuggish intimidation to crush dissent, as usual. Talk about weak.
Ian
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:22 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun May 28, 2017 7:30 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:Comparing MMA and Leitai bouts is like comparing a pug with a wolf. People were seriously injured or died all the time. Anything was fair game. Plus, falling off is a pretty easy way to get injured in itself. It was literally life or death, not win or lose. I respect MMA, but let's get real.


That strikes me as hyperbole. Is there any significant body of evidence that people died all the time? I agree that the lei tai can be quite dangerous, and I received my second worst competition injury being thrown off of the platform onto a folding chair in the early oughts. Still, I think a lot of the old stories of deadly fisticuffs are wildly exaggerated and we are seeing what's what these days.

Still, it's nice that we have seen some strong lei tai fighters take on some of the most veteran MMA fighters (Le vs Shamrock).
文武両道。

Lord Li requires one hundred gold coins per day!
User avatar
Ian C. Kuzushi
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Sun May 28, 2017 7:45 pm

Ian wrote:NOT ONE fighter has stepped up in defense of TCMAs.

I thought he just wanted to challenge "Taiji fighter". Did he change his mind?

When GM Chang was on the stage, before the referee gave him the championship title, the referee asked if any audience below the stage wanted to get on the stage and challenge GM Chang. The SC master 佟忠义 (Tong Zhon-Yi) who was under the stage that day said, "I prefer to lose under the stage than to lose up the stage."

Don't have the courage to challenge someone is not as bad as to challenge someone and lose.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sun May 28, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8289
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby MaartenSFS on Sun May 28, 2017 9:12 pm

I still stand by my previous statement that these arts were not designed for competition. I don't have much information about Leitai bouts and don't think many would have competed back in the day either. It would have been infinitely more than now, though.. People died all the time in boxing before the advent of gloves as well.

My master told me that nowadays the government limits the amount of combat training soldiers get lest they give the government trouble after retiring.. Those other Asian countries don't gave a massive government actively turning their arts into a dance..
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Sun May 28, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
MaartenSFS
Wuji
 
Posts: 1661
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 pm
Location: Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, China

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Mon May 29, 2017 5:56 am

MaartenSFS wrote:My master told me that nowadays the government limits the amount of combat training soldiers get lest they give the government trouble after retiring.. Those other Asian countries don't gave a massive government actively turning their arts into a dance..


Well yeah, that's my point.

Look at how effectively Xu got silenced, multiply that by 50 years and 10 times the violence... how can the general standard of martial arts not suffer?
Any one person's teacher might be the biggest badass on earth, but the general standard of martial arts in China is garbage.
When the martial arts were forced underground, it simply caused a brain drain, reduced access to teachers, students, good training partners, information...
Ergo, lowered standard.
So now, all you can really honestly say is, "this practitioner's a big fish in a small pond."

Btw, the enforcer / bouncer stories really don't prove much.
From Siberia to South Africa, there are individuals willing to hurt others, and these guys don't have a singular, preferred martial art.
"I like the sound that collarbones make when I crack them with my tire iron" - what martial art is that? It's just willingness to go beyond what's reasonable.
It has little to do with style, and a lot to do with psychotic intent -shrug-

I still stand by my previous statement that these arts were not designed for competition.


I've never understood this argument.
Clearly, there are many things you can do on the street that you can't do in the ring...
But surely if a practitioner's such a badass that he could potentially kill a person... then a low-risk competition should be a walk in the park?

'But CMA techniques are too deadly for competition!'
What, when you spar, are you kicking groins, gouging eyes, hammering backs of heads?
No, you agree to some basic rules, and go at it.
In that case, how is that different from MMA rules...?

CMA guys always talk about "street", but the way they spar is even more tame and rule-based than MMA.
No groundwork, no knees or elbows to the face, no stomps... they almost always start face to face, in well-lit conditions.
And why do we hardly ever see CMA asymmetric (one vs. many) sparring?

IMO too much emphasis is placed on the difference between sport and street. It's asinine.
Why have so many armies throughout history encouraged fight sports? Because they're ideal for training a person's mind and body for war.
Formal competitions are just informal competitions on a larger scale - they're like tiguan (another CMA tradition), with more participants.
These aren't night-and-day differences.
IME fighters like to fight, and they usually just find ways to fight.
Last edited by Ian on Mon May 29, 2017 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ian
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5652
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:22 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Steve James on Mon May 29, 2017 7:49 am

I think it's almost a sin to compare traditional cma or competitions to contemporary warfare, especially on a day like today. Ancient armies have found ways to practice for war. Today we teach children and the elderly. Fighting is not the goal. It's fun, can be profitable, and is great exercise. Occasionally, it might even be useful. But, it's just practice until it's used in war.

Self-defense is another topic. But, nobody needs a martial art for self-defense, per se. It's nice to have.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16246
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Trick on Mon May 29, 2017 8:24 am

I don't know about that "TCMA" is to deadline for competition saying, are there people today that say such things? if there are people saying such things, so what ? It's nothing to care about. But i'm surprised that it seems martial art competitors and even some higher level competitors care about and almost get angry with people(if there are such)? who are supposed to say such things as above saying, what threat could such people be to high level martial arts competitors ?
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 12:44 pm

Steve James wrote:nobody needs a martial art for self-defense, per se. It's nice to have.

To me, self-defense is not only to defend yourself but to defend your family members when help from the law is not available. To have the ability to knock/take down your opponent by your 1st punch/throw is very important. That will need some serious training.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon May 29, 2017 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8289
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest