這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat May 27, 2017 3:32 am

Obviously none of you lot talking about a lack of a competition record have never lived/trained in China and aren't in the right circles or you would cease with your ignorance. Even now, China is quite a lawless place and there are lots of people that have fought from a young age, usually on the street. The best I've met have all fought on the street at one point and have the scars to prove it. You've also not experienced just how dark this society can be and why people wouldn't want to go public. You really have no fucking clue. Even many foreigners that have lived in China for years and years have no fucking clue. Especially as a foreigner you have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and understand Chinese to get a good glimpse of the underbelly of society. Just living a normal expat life you'd think that all was peachy. And for you it would be. You can leave and go back home any time you want. They can't.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 27, 2017 4:09 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Obviously none of you lot talking about a lack of a competition record have never lived/trained in China and aren't in the right circles or you would cease with your ignorance. Even now, China is quite a lawless place and there are lots of people that have fought from a young age, usually on the street. The best I've met have all fought on the street at one point and have the scars to prove it. You've also not experienced just how dark this society can be and why people wouldn't want to go public. You really have no fucking clue. Even many foreigners that have lived in China for years and years have no fucking clue. Especially as a foreigner you have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and understand Chinese to get a good glimpse of the underbelly of society. Just living a normal expat life you'd think that all was peachy. And for you it would be. You can leave and go back home any time you want. They can't.


Interesting in that it reflects pretty much what I was told by one of my taiji bothers who was a lawyer in China. He said "China has no real laws, in many places people hire others to fight for them if they can not fight or protect themselves."
Working as a lawyer in Beijing, he had more time and money, with which he helped his whole family. He also had more time for himself, so there is where he found the famed Yang style Tai Chi Master Zhang YuLiang in the park in 2000.

Zhang’s lessons were entirely informal, as he took no payment for teaching. But because of the openness and informality Zhao was able to observe rather than participate. Zhao read many books about t’ai chi ch’uan and with those ideas -- use the mind to direct the qi, relax, turn the waist, stay vertical -- was soon able to beat all the other students and in fact, anyone else who came along.


In Beijing some of the taiji members did have what could best described as a "fight club" in the evenings when it got dark...Not something I participated directly in nor would recommend if one was not really serious or trained. If one did they better really understand how to speak the language to understand whats going on....


Even in the push hands, it could get pretty rough with people being tossed to the ground....Which is why when in the parks if someone wanted to push they would make it very clear it was as friends or not. This would set the tone of the encounter.

When I talk of high level people unknown they are unknown among the public because they want to be, but known within the circles they move in. If one does not know of them then either they'er not in the circle or really don't need know. I thought this was a pretty common understanding among some here, apparently not.

your posting in gen confirms with what I have experienced directly or was told by classmates.

In the recent event between the MMA guy, and the taiji guy,,,the MMA guy is in trouble and will be for some time. It's just a matter of time, it wont be public and highly doubtful that it will be filmed. .
I think he understands this now, being a marketer it would seem he did not think what he was doing through. :P
Last edited by windwalker on Sat May 27, 2017 4:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby bartekb on Sat May 27, 2017 4:17 am

It's just a matter of time, it wont be public and highly doubtful that it will be filmed. .

...and so the fairy tale continues

so let me understand that - Chinese grandmasters have no problem putting circus shows like pushing agains strongmen, chi blastst etc. or choreographed fake fights in national TV,
but when they actually use their art for real its super secret and never filmed?

MaartenSFS - how are those movies when you destroy boxers in sparring coming along?
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 27, 2017 4:23 am

bartekb wrote:
It's just a matter of time, it wont be public and highly doubtful that it will be filmed. .

...and so the fairy tale continues

MaartenSFS - how are those movies when you destroy boxers in sparring coming along?



yep some tale ;)
In an interview with the BBC, Xu said that he would refrain from speaking out as much from now on and become a student of traditional Chinese martial arts.


You do understand why this is public don't you. Its some of those "fairy tales"
becoming true for him. I think its too late, but hope not..
This one won't have a good ending. :-\
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby bartekb on Sat May 27, 2017 4:59 am

In an interview with the BBC, Xu said that he would refrain from speaking out as much from now on and become a student of traditional Chinese martial arts.

there are 2 options here:
- he either realised if the taichi master havent tripped his chi blast would have destroyed him like you see in Dragonball cartoons
- he realised he lives in a totalitarian regime that can literally take away his livelyhood, health, lock him up and torture him - as the regime already does with virtually every public figure they wanted to quiet down

Whats really funny for me is - its amazing the chinese government thinks its less risky to put so much pressure on some random MMA guy instead of finding virtually one taichi master that can put on a fair fight with the guy
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby C.J.W. on Sat May 27, 2017 5:08 am

bartekb wrote:Bottom line is - Xu Xiaodong incident proves one thing - from now on one shouldnt trust any story, exhibition, or a competition set out in Mainland China.


I've come across my fair share of charlatans, but the two men I mentioned were no joke.

The brothel bouncer was in his mid-50s when I met him almost 20 years ago, and could still demonstrate iron body skill by letting my friend and I take turns beating him at will using a baseball bat. My friend actually broke the bat after taking a hard swing at the side of his neck. His finger jabs were also vicious, as the Hakka style he practiced focuses on point-striking. A light poke in the ribs from him was enough to send me doubling over in agony, and I once saw him knock a challenger unconscious using the same move.

This other guy, Mr. Hu, grew up learning Fujian White Crane from his relatives, and later joined a gang and became an enforcer due to his fighting prowess. He was a bit of a kung-fu nutcase who loved to fight using homemade shivs. (In the 60s and 70s, the weapon of choice for many Taiwanese gangsters were shivs made from steel rebars.) He had battle scars all over his body, and loved telling stories about his old street fights and demonstrating the techniques he'd used on me.

I never took those stories seriously until a couple of years after he died of cancer in 2004 -- the result of years of heavy drinking and smoking. During a visit to his old fellow gangster's house, the man confided in me after downing a few drinks that Hu had actually killed at least 4 people in violent street fights with rival gang members and gotten away with it. (He had all the old newspaper clippings from the 70s and details behind those news stories to prove it.)

The gang leader had managed to keep him out of jail by either making the deaths look like messy suicides or asking orphaned juveniles to turn themselves in and take the blame for him. In return, the juvies would receive a handsome amount of money and usually be out in 5 to 8 years due to their young age.


P.S. This is what the shivs those old-timers used typically look like:
Image
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Sat May 27, 2017 5:16 am

windwalker wrote:
In an interview with the BBC, Xu said that he would refrain from speaking out as much from now on and become a student of traditional Chinese martial arts.


You do understand why this is public don't you. Its some of those "fairy tales"
becoming true for him.


Wait, are you saying you believe that Xu's statement about becoming a TCMA student is sincere?

Do you also believe those CCTV confessions?

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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat May 27, 2017 6:15 am

bartekb wrote:
It's just a matter of time, it wont be public and highly doubtful that it will be filmed. .

...and so the fairy tale continues

so let me understand that - Chinese grandmasters have no problem putting circus shows like pushing agains strongmen, chi blastst etc. or choreographed fake fights in national TV,
but when they actually use their art for real its super secret and never filmed?

MaartenSFS - how are those movies when you destroy boxers in sparring coming along?


When did I say that I would destroy all these boxers? I said I was training with them. Don't be a dick.

You can choose to call these fairy tales and ignore the experience of people that have lived and trained in China for many years. That's your right. Your loss.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby MaartenSFS on Sat May 27, 2017 6:18 am

C.J.W. wrote:
bartekb wrote:Bottom line is - Xu Xiaodong incident proves one thing - from now on one shouldnt trust any story, exhibition, or a competition set out in Mainland China.


I've come across my fair share of charlatans, but the two men I mentioned were no joke.

The brothel bouncer was in his mid-50s when I met him almost 20 years ago, and could still demonstrate iron body skill by letting my friend and I take turns beating him at will using a baseball bat. My friend actually broke the bat after taking a hard swing at the side of his neck. His finger jabs were also vicious, as the Hakka style he practiced focuses on point-striking. A light poke in the ribs from him was enough to send me doubling over in agony, and I once saw him knock a challenger unconscious using the same move.

This other guy, Mr. Hu, grew up learning Fujian White Crane from his relatives, and later joined a gang and became an enforcer due to his fighting prowess. He was a bit of a kung-fu nutcase who loved to fight using homemade shivs. (In the 60s and 70s, the weapon of choice for many Taiwanese gangsters were shivs made from steel rebars.) He had battle scars all over his body, and loved telling stories about his old street fights and demonstrating the techniques he'd used on me.

I never took those stories seriously until a couple of years after he died of cancer in 2004 -- the result of years of heavy drinking and smoking. During a visit to his old fellow gangster's house, the man confided in me after downing a few drinks that Hu had actually killed at least 4 people in violent street fights with rival gang members and gotten away with it. (He had all the old newspaper clippings from the 70s and details behind those news stories to prove it.)

The gang leader had managed to keep him out of jail by either making the deaths look like messy suicides or asking orphaned juveniles to turn themselves in and take the blame for him. In return, the juvies would receive a handsome amount of money and usually be out in 5 to 8 years due to their young age.


P.S. This is what the shivs those old-timers used typically look like:
Image

Those are really cool!
One master that I know, my Shifu's Gongfu brother, was an enforcer and debt-collector in Macao and Guangdong for many years. I get the feeling that he's done very bad things. He's got a sick personality. Very skilled, though.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Steve James on Sat May 27, 2017 7:19 am

Well, in every gym, there's a story of a fighter who was as good as any pro but never became well known. Many of them are big fish in small ponds and can't possibly know how they'd do outside their neighborhood. However, without putting any of them down, I'd say that no one can speak for them. That is, unless you've fought them AND the public fighters they've claimed to equal. Otherwise, I know a guy at my old gym who would kick all their asses. Btw, I doubt think the underground fight scene in China is any tougher than in the Bronx, Paris, Rio, or Moscow (?).

This is an ironic argument given the context. Stories about skills is what started the mess. It'd be possible for people to go on enjoying their tcma --wu shu, tao lu, qi gong-- while others were competing in mma, "kick-boxing," or whatever. But, guess not.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Sat May 27, 2017 7:42 am

Steve James wrote:Well, in every gym, there's a story of a fighter who was as good as any pro but never became well known. Many of them are big fish in small ponds and can't possibly know how they'd do outside their neighborhood.


Btw, I doubt think the underground fight scene in China is any tougher than in the Bronx, Paris, Rio, or Moscow (?).


Exactly.

But some people really romanticize jianghu.

They believe they're starring in some kind of Chinese John Wick.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby everything on Sat May 27, 2017 7:48 am

A long time ago people like Yang Luchan and Wang Xiangzhai and Dong Haichuan cross-trained various arts and won some kind of contests (I have no idea what the format, rules, etc., etc. would have been). In the 90s the Gracies tried to prove they had the "one" best style, and it worked for a limited time. Now you have people like Jon Jones who do the same as what Wang, Dong, etc., did and cross-train and win some contests. Let's face it, though. Training what Wang trained, what Jones trains, and so on won't make a random person "elite level" or a future legend. We all know some dude who is great at X and in our eyes he's pro-level. I've played football/soccer with some actual ex-pros and US D1 players. They seem amazing to me, but they aren't really that high level. It's the same in every sport and art. That doesn't take anything away from the rest of us wanting to study art X, imho.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby RobP3 on Sat May 27, 2017 8:19 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Obviously none of you lot talking about a lack of a competition record have never lived/trained in China and aren't in the right circles or you would cease with your ignorance. Even now, China is quite a lawless place and there are lots of people that have fought from a young age, usually on the street. The best I've met have all fought on the street at one point and have the scars to prove it. You've also not experienced just how dark this society can be.


Well that goes on all round the world. Thing is, even with illegal fights in the UK, people know who is who and what is what.



The problem seems to be, In China, this MMA guy has been able to make a laughing stock of the national fighting arts and the response seems to be "shut him down" rather than have someone come forward for a straightener. Of course, anyone can be set upon by a gang of thugs with knives, but that still doesn't reflect "kung fu", does it?
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Sat May 27, 2017 8:36 am

It seems that some really don't understand what's going on. He was shut down for his own safety. Really not much more to say on this. Interesting to note
that those that have lived there, trained there share a common assessment of what's going on and those who haven't do not.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Ian on Sat May 27, 2017 10:24 am

windwalker wrote:It seems that some really don't understand what's going on. He was shut down for his own safety.


For his own safety? How do you know this? As opposed to 'some tentacle of the state shut him down because he was making China lose face?

http://www.economist.com/news/china/217 ... dition-and
The authorities appear eager to put an end to the debate. China’s president Xi Jinping is a fan of traditional Chinese culture, and says he wants to use it promote the country’s “soft power” abroad. The recent criticism of kung fu may have triggered too much questioning of it for his taste.


I remember CCTV enthusiastically broadcasting this everywhere when it came out. Subways, buses, taxis, tv, radio...


And these demonstrations are part of the standard soft power propaganda.
Image

Plus Xu revealed that the China vs. Japan and China vs. Thailand fights are fixed. Those are supposed to be lesser countries, not equal adversaries!

Even worse, he revealed China's weakness using Western methods!


Interesting to note that those that have lived there, trained there share a common assessment of what's going on and those who haven't do not.


Lived and trained there, disagree with you. I'm sure John Wang is also not ignorant of Mainland China and Chinese culture.
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