這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby everything on Fri May 12, 2017 12:22 pm

BruceP wrote:Something I learned right around the turn of the century is that the only time a tai chi guy is actually 'doing' real tai chi in any kind of fight is when he gets his ass beat. If he holds his own or bests the other guy, he wasn't doing real tai chi.



I think if you best the other guy you shouldn't say "I was doing tai chi", you should just say "and that's [BruceP | JW | Bao | cloudz | whatever your name is] style, bitches!" ;D
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby BruceP on Sat May 13, 2017 9:06 pm

That'd be true for the individual. But if the training yields repeatable results for others, and if the training is based on tai chi principles and methods, there's more to account for than just the individual.
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Sun May 14, 2017 12:14 pm

- Do you think a 100% Taiji guy without any cross training be able to fight?
- What kind of toolbox should a Taiji fighter have?
- What kind of tools should be in that toolbox?
Last edited by johnwang on Sun May 14, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8168
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Sun May 14, 2017 5:02 pm

johnwang wrote:- Do you think a 100% Taiji guy without any cross training be able to fight?
- What kind of toolbox should a Taiji fighter have?
- What kind of tools should be in that toolbox?


Taiji like all Chinese martial arts has the same tool sets to address the same issues. How it uses them is quite different just as in other Chinese martial arts that use different methods and theroies.

A mistake to confuse the one who uses a tool over the tool itself. Ben Lo a noted taiji exponent. Used to say taiji is like a machine gun, not a pistol. Both are effective.
A machine gun takes awhile to understand and know how to use it.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun May 14, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5968
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby zrm on Sun May 14, 2017 5:13 pm

johnwang wrote: Do you think a 100% Taiji guy without any cross training be able to fight?


If they spent a lot of time doing full contact sparring / fighting with other experienced fighters who also do a lot of full contact sparring / fighting - then yes. Does fighting/sparring against others from other systems count as cross-training? If so then the primary issue is that the number of 100% taiji guys who practice full contact fighting this is rather limited. Since the pool is so small its also hard to find others of high level to train and hone their skills on. It is a simple truth that the majority of people who do Taiji are not that concerned with professional fighting, most are in it for other reasons. Sparring against people a bunch of people who aren't in it to win it promotes "big fish small pond" syndrome. Compare with professional sports with a high prize pool.

johnwang wrote: What kind of toolbox should a Taiji fighter have? What kind of tools should be in that toolbox?


I don't think there's anything particular lacking in the Taiji toolbox in regards to stand-up striking and grappling. If a Taiji guy really drilled the hell out of a few techniques that worked for them they should be able to go toe-to-toe with most fighters from other systems. You only need a few go-to movements. You don't need to have a good Muay Thai roundhouse kick or Judo hip throw if that's not your thing, but you do need to know how to deal with such things if you are up against a guy who has one. I would say that fighting somebody from a 100% pure taiji background would also be disorientating to an MMA-style opponent as they would have very little experience against such a fighter. The MMA guy may have an advantage in that they would have some experience adapting to people from outside their personal style through cross-training. Ground defense / attack may be a problem for the Taiji person if that is allowed in the rules. I would agree with you that most Taiji guys don't emphasize agile footwork enough but it really depends on the system and where you draw the line around what constitutes "100% Taiji".
zrm
Anjing
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:49 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Sun May 14, 2017 5:23 pm

zrm wrote:it really depends on the system and where you draw the line around what constitutes "100% Taiji".

When I was 7 years old, Taiji was the only CMA system that I have trained. I was a 100% Taiji boy at that time. When I was 11, I started to train Lo Han from my brother in law. I was no longer a 100% Taiji boy.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun May 14, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8168
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby windwalker on Sun May 14, 2017 5:47 pm

Studying to play a piano does not make one a piano player. They have to demonstrate that they can play it before they can be called a piano player
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5968
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby zrm on Sun May 14, 2017 7:21 pm

johnwang wrote:
zrm wrote:it really depends on the system and where you draw the line around what constitutes "100% Taiji".

When I was 7 years old, Taiji was the only CMA system that I have trained. I was a 100% Taiji boy at that time. When I was 11, I started to train Lo Han from my brother in law. I was no longer a 100% Taiji boy.


Yang Cheng Fu cross trained with Wudang Sword master Li Jinglin. He also knew Sun Lu Tang and Du Xing Wu. The Ziranmen school used to cross train with Yang Cheng Fu's school a lot at that time. We borrowed a lot of Taiji concepts from that time. Are we to simply assume they didn't borrow back? Li Tian Ji who was the main guy responsible for the original Beijing 24 form trained under both Sun Lu Tang and Yang Cheng Fu. We all know Sun family style is heavily influenced by Bagua and Xing Yi, and yet is considered one of the family styles of Taiji. Huang style is considered Yang Taiji but includes a lot of concepts from his earlier art of White Crane. The famous wudang masters who supposedly invented Taiji supposed studied other arts, such as Bagua and Wudang sword. Even Chen style shares a lot of concepts from Shaolin Cannon boxing. To think that Taiji came out of some sort of vacuum is pretty naive. If they trained by themselves never fought anybody else, how did they ever find out that their art was the best? If your Taiji great-grandmaster wasn't 100% taiji, how can anybody be 100% taiji?
zrm
Anjing
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:49 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Sun May 14, 2017 7:34 pm

zrm wrote:Yang Cheng Fu cross trained with Wudang Sword master Li Jinglin.

I had heard something different. One day my teacher and Li Jinglin walked in the park in Shanghai while Yang Cheng Fu was teaching his students. Li said to my teacher, "Look, Yang Chen Fu is cheating on his students again". Soon Yang Cheng Fu left Shanghai. Why would Li made such comment if Yang was his student?

My teacher told me that the true cause for Yang Cheng Fu's death - Yang Cheng Fu was evicted from Shanghai by Li Jinglin and told never to come back.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun May 14, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8168
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby zrm on Sun May 14, 2017 8:12 pm

johnwang wrote:
zrm wrote:Yang Cheng Fu cross trained with Wudang Sword master Li Jinglin.

I had heard something different. One day my teacher and Li Jinglin walked in the park in Shanghai while Yang Cheng Fu was teaching his students. Li said to my teacher, "Look, Yang Chen Fu is cheating on his students again". Soon Yang Cheng Fu left Shanghai. Why would Li made such comment if Yang was his student?

My teacher told me that the true cause for Yang Cheng Fu's death - Yang Cheng Fu was evicted from Shanghai by Li Jinglin and told never to come back.


I've never heard that story before. Interesting. I did get the impression that Li was considered Cheng Fu's senior but didn't know of any animosity between the two. Huang Yuan Xiu was Li's direct disciple and Yang Cheng Fu signed the preface of Huang Yuan Xiu's wudang sword book. In his book Huang said that Li's sword art adopted some ideas from Taiji - namely simplifying it to 13 core movements/energies like Taiji. Huang also wrote a book on Yang Taiji that features a photo of him doing push hands with Yang Cheng Fu. Huang and Du Xin Wu from Ziranmen were blood brothers. I did hear a story about how Wan Lai Sheng got in trouble for besting a senior Yang member in a push hands bout and how the Yang family put the call out for another senior guy to come out to beat him in order to save face.
zrm
Anjing
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:49 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby zrm on Sun May 14, 2017 8:18 pm

Lots of photos of old masters meeting up and / or cross training in this book.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... g-yuanxiu/
zrm
Anjing
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:49 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby BruceP on Sun May 14, 2017 10:31 pm

johnwang wrote:- Do you think a 100% Taiji guy without any cross training be able to fight?


Fight what? Or whom? People already know how to fight and they do it all the time with no 'training' at all. Lots of people have successfully defended themselves or otherwise saved themselves from harm by another without any training. So I absolutely think/know a 100% Taiji guy with no x-training is able to 'fight' if their 'sparring' is properly structured.

Very few tai chi guys know how to 'spar'. It's usually a misguided mess that doesn't benefit anyone's tai chi.


johnwang wrote:
- What kind of toolbox should a Taiji fighter have?
- What kind of tools should be in that toolbox?


It depends on the person, but the principles (neutrality-spontaneity-sensitivity etc) and methods (stick-follow-link-adhere etc) are fairly well laid out.

There are no techniques in tai chi. There are movement, and postural guidelines (Thirteen Torso Methods- 8 Gates-Fives Steps etc) that require some specialized types of practice by virtue of their specifics. Training movement and postural skills have very little to do with 'fighting' and more to do with developing a tai chi body.

The tools one develops come from their personal affinities toward certain movement patterns, and their innate spacial awareness. It's different for everyone. Some people really click with some stuff while other stuff just doesn't stick. Hitting, throwing, locking and footwork come from exploring what they really know, without thinking about it, while dealing with another person's pressure.
BruceP
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby cloudz on Mon May 15, 2017 3:19 am

johnwang wrote:
cloudz wrote:
johnwang wrote:If you can master "cloud hand - body control", you can use it to defeat your opponent over and over.

Hey John,

Is there an example clip of this move floating around. Love to see which kind of throw you're talking about.
thanks

From 2.11 - 2.28.

- Your left hand control on your opponent's right arm.
- Your right hand control his left arm.
- Different from this clip, you redirect his left arm under his own right arm (let his right arm to control his own left arm).
- You let go your right control hand. Your right forearm put pressure under his right elbow joint (upward force), or under his right shoulder (horizontal force to your right).
- Your right foot sweep his left leg as "elbow locking foot sweep", or your right leg trap behind his left leg as "diagonal fly".

The "cloud hands" is a "door opening" move. You can use it to trap your opponent's arms, redirect his arms to wherever you want his arms to be, or move him to your right (as described above), if he

- moves to your right, you borrow his yielding force and throw him to your right.
- resists, you also borrow his resistance force and throw him to your left.



Thank you John
nice move
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2402
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Appledog on Mon May 15, 2017 7:07 am

This post is supposed to be deleted because I only keep my most recent 100 posts. An admin should delete it or allow users to delete their own posts to save space.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Appledog
Anjing
 
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby everything on Mon May 15, 2017 7:46 am

Yes - theoretically - of course if you mean some basic level of "fighting". Like most arts, it's only missing ground grappling / ground fighting. It has punches, elbows, kicks, knees, other strikes, throws/stand-up grappling.

If you mean we middle-aged hobbyists can enter the UFC, no, of course not.

If you mean, do 99.999% of people train it so they can fight, no, of course not.

unforgivable sin of "just following the yiquan model" for example ;-)

Well I stand by my comment/sin. ;D This is what I would do (but learn sparring from RSF), hypothetically if I could, in all seriousness. More than enough expertise.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest