這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Niall Keane on Mon May 15, 2017 9:00 am

Phew... there's some amount of shit talk going on...

I couldn't count how many successful full contact fighters both my Sigung Cheng Tin-hung and my Sifu Dan Docherty produced... let alone my tai chi brothers...

and that's with 100% tai chi chuan drills and skills...

But I guess it's easier to ignore that, and buy into the fallacy that no tai chi fighters exist than admit: "they can but we cannot"???

There's a lot of folks desperately trying to believe that their tai chi boxercise of forms and limited tuishou is the complete package capable of delivering results!

I wonder if someday a western boxerciser who skips and punches the air only, will wonder why his complete art cannot produce Mike Tyson anymore? Maybe they will get together online and suggest that Mike must have had a solid base in MMA before he learnt boxing in the park and that's why his shit worked?

Too much cognative dissonance being provoked?
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby wayne hansen on Mon May 15, 2017 11:36 am

Well said
I was lucky enough to learn through the CTH and yap Sui ting lineages
Both were successful in full contact and either system was enough by itself
My CTH teacher Colin Chau was recently held up by a street gang with knives who asked for his money
He asked them not to embarrass him by taking his money in plain view as he had a reputation in the community
He led them down the nearest alley to give them the money
When they got down the alley he said
Ok you punks want my money you come and take it off me
They thought twice and went looking for an easier target
Colin is in his late 70's
His fighting spirit he got in CTH,s school in HK has not left him
Non of those deriding tai chi,s lack of effectiveness have either trained tai chi exclusively or learnt an entire system
Let alone trained .with full dedication
CMC stated u need three things to be successful
Natural talent
A good teacher
Right method
Most fail in these three
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Mon May 15, 2017 2:53 pm

If you can't defend against right/left hooks or roundhouse kick, it doesn't matter which style that you train. So how to train yourself to be able to deal with those situation?

There are problems and there are solutions. Trying to design a good TCMA training that can lead you to solve those problems is important IMO.



Last edited by johnwang on Mon May 15, 2017 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby everything on Mon May 15, 2017 2:57 pm

I have no idea except I read your double haymaker comment earlier ... is that the answer / an answer?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby GrahamB on Mon May 15, 2017 3:03 pm

Putting your hands up into some semblance of a defence would be a good start.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Mon May 15, 2017 3:26 pm

everything wrote:I have no idea except I read your double haymaker comment earlier ... is that the answer / an answer?

Double hay-makers works well against straight punches such as jab/cross. To use circular motion to deal with circular motion may not be the best solution. IMO, the best solution for double hooks is "double upward separate hands".

You extend your

- left arm between your opponent's head and his right arm.
- right arm between your opponent's head and his left arm.

You separate both of his arms away from his head and body.

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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby everything on Mon May 15, 2017 3:50 pm

also - use jab?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby BruceP on Mon May 15, 2017 4:01 pm

wayne hansen wrote:CMC stated u need three things to be successful
Natural talent
A good teacher
Right method
Most fail in these three


Successful at what?

Everyone has natural talent. They just need the right kinds of pressure to bring it out, and a 'good teacher' knows it. You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there.

'Right method' depends on the goals of the practitioner. A twenty year old is going to have different goals than a 40 year old with a family and a job. Different limitations, abilities, physicality and affinities. Time spent will be coming from very different budgets. That holds true almost completely across the board.

Most fail in those three because they don't really consider them for what they are.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby Niall Keane on Mon May 15, 2017 4:44 pm



and they keep going on about Sami's "unpredictability" in his tactics...



Does Vince look like his tai chi lacks impact???

If you can't deliver like this from a pure Tai Chi Chuan training... then there's something up with your training!!!

For those with eyes to see and familiar with Wudang jibigung... notice the use of "embrace tiger's head"!!!
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby wayne hansen on Mon May 15, 2017 5:54 pm

BruceP wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:CMC stated u need three things to be successful
Natural talent
A good teacher
Right method
Most fail in these three


Successful at what?

Everyone has natural talent. They just need the right kinds of pressure to bring it out, and a 'good teacher' knows it. You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there.

'Right method' depends on the goals of the practitioner. A twenty year old is going to have different goals than a 40 year old with a family and a job. Different limitations, abilities, physicality and affinities. Time spent will be coming from very different budgets. That holds true almost completely across the

Most fail in those three because they don't really consider them for what they are.


I misquoated there
It should have been

1 natural talent
2 right method
3 perseverance

Natural talent is the least nessasery
No all don't have it some no matter how long some people train will never get it
Right method and good teacher mean the same thing
But even with out the other two perseverance is prime

If we are talking about tai chi it should be complete mastery of the total art if not we are not talking about tai chi but something else
I don't care what people add to their art
What goals they have or how they train

Just don't call it tai chi it is something else
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby RMAGUY on Tue May 16, 2017 3:17 am

GrahamB wrote:Putting your hands up into some semblance of a defence would be a good start.


;D ;D ;D and well said
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby BruceP on Tue May 16, 2017 11:28 am

wayne hansen wrote:I misquoated there
It should have been

1 natural talent
2 right method
3 perseverance

Natural talent is the least nessasery
No all don't have it some no matter how long some people train will never get it
Right method and good teacher mean the same thing
But even with out the other two perseverance is prime

If we are talking about tai chi it should be complete mastery of the total art if not we are not talking about tai chi but something else
I don't care what people add to their art
What goals they have or how they train

Just don't call it tai chi it is something else



Total mastery of the art? You knock a lot of people out of the boat when you swing that oar. Who makes that determination? Is there a panel of judges? A bunch of tai chi cops? You?

Tai chi's basic fighting method is accessible to anyone and does not require "total mastery of the art" in order to be practiced and tested. That's where the art begins and ends. And guess what - it's tai chi.

Right method and perseverance = proper training and time spent.

The only success one can realistically achieve is to keep their tai chi current and relevant to their personal combat. There's nothing else beyond that except fantasy.

I'm more than a little familiar with CMC's pedagogy, and it is dark ages stuff compared to what we know today about learning and cultivating internal discovery. So I can understand how an individual's natural talent(s) and innate understanding of tjq's core principles was often overlooked or undiscovered back in his/your day because the training and teaching clicked with the few who learned from such narrow and stringent instruction. And look at the legacy that kind of thinking has bestowed upon the CMA world - one of the worst.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Tue May 16, 2017 12:13 pm

Let's talk about "fighting".

The way that I look at "fighting" is to define problems and then to find solutions. For example, if my opponent use

- jab/cross, I'll use double hay-makers.
- left/right hooks, I'll use separate hands.
- uppercut, I'll use cover hand.
- front/side kick, I'll redirect his kick, jam his leading arm, and move in.
- roundhouse kick, I'll catch his kicking leg, hook/sweep his rooting leg, and take him down.
- shot at my leg, I'll use reverse head lock.
- ...

What TCMA style do I use? I truly don't know. I just try to find the right solution to solve the right problem. When we talk about TCMA training, Is the term "style" really that important? IMO, it's not.

So whether you train Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, long fist, preying mantis, Baji, WC, ..., why can't you take this approach, design a proper training program yourself if you care about fighting ?
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby BruceP on Tue May 16, 2017 1:23 pm

johnwang wrote:What TCMA style do I use? I truly don't know. I just try to find the right solution to solve the right problem. When we talk about TCMA training, Is the term "style" really that important? IMO, it's not.

So whether you train Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, long fist, preying mantis, Baji, WC, ..., why can't you take this approach, design a proper training program yourself if you care about fighting ?



John, I agree that the term "style" isn't all that important. If all a person trains is contained in a particular style, though, then the style is central, yet incidental, to what a person is practicing.

I also agree that using problem-solving as an approach is always the best way to study an art/style. Some of us had the audacity to do just that in training tai chi chuan's basic fighting method. In designing a proper training program, the individual precludes the style, but if all the solutions can be found within a style/art, then the training can be said to be following that art without drawing from other sources in finding those solutions. That's the thinking behind the fast-wrestling I developed for my own training. Anyone who understands the art well enough can do the same in their own training.

Tai chi chuan is just a bunch of principles and methods. Whether for health and wellness, fightiness or fun, the principles and methods offer a stand-alone body of study one can explore until they stop moving.
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Re: 這就是中國, This is China says Xu Xiaodong

Postby johnwang on Tue May 16, 2017 5:05 pm

BruceP wrote:I also agree that using problem-solving as an approach is always the best way to study an art/style.

I have tried to find solutions for the following questions:

How to

- knock my opponent down/out with just 1 punch?
- use a throw to finish the fight without having to continue the ground game?
- deal with my opponent who runs toward me and tries to knock my head off?
- move in without being punched and kicked?
- touch my back on my opponent's chest without being dragged down by his waist wrapping arm?
- ...

All those questions affect my TCMA training big time.
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