the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

BruceP wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:I misquoated there
It should have been

1 natural talent
2 right method
3 perseverance

Natural talent is the least nessasery
No all don't have it some no matter how long some people train will never get it
Right method and good teacher mean the same thing
But even with out the other two perseverance is prime

If we are talking about tai chi it should be complete mastery of the total art if not we are not talking about tai chi but something else
I don't care what people add to their art
What goals they have or how they train

Just don't call it tai chi it is something else

Total mastery of the art? You knock a lot of people out of the boat when you swing that oar. Who makes that determination? Is there a panel of judges? A bunch of tai chi cops? You?

Tai chi's basic fighting method is accessible to anyone and does not require "total mastery of the art" in order to be practiced and tested. That's where the art begins and ends. And guess what - it's tai chi.

Right method and perseverance = proper training and time spent.

The only success one can realistically achieve is to keep their tai chi current and relevant to their personal combat. There's nothing else beyond that except fantasy.

I'm more than a little familiar with CMC's pedagogy, and it is dark ages stuff compared to what we know today about learning and cultivating internal discovery. So I can understand how an individual's natural talent(s) and innate understanding of tjq's core principles was often overlooked or undiscovered back in his/your day because the training and teaching clicked with the few who learned from such narrow and stringent instruction. And look at the legacy that kind of thinking has bestowed upon the CMA world - one of the worst.

Total mastery is an aim not a determination,if you don't aim for that what is the point.
If you are only trying for personal combat there are much quicker methods
I divide CMC into 3 schools Taiwan ,the states and Malaysia which line are you familiar with
Where does the internal discovery come from
What tai chi things do you practice to train the core principles

wayne hansen wrote:Total mastery is an aim not a determination,if you don't aim for that what is the point.

I think to have Taiji fighting skill/ability is more important than to master the whole Taiji system.

- If you can use "cloud hand" to take down everybody on this planet, even if that's the only Taiji skill you have mastered, nobody on earth will say you are not a good Taiji master.
- Even if you have mastered the whole Taiji system, if you can't handle a 6 months boxer, nobody will call you a Taiji master.

If you don't train how to fight, you just can't fight. It has nothing to do with the "complete system" or not.

You can

- write a book with 200 techniques.
- publish a DVD with 100 techniques.
- give workshop with 50 techniques.
- demo with 20 techniques.
- fight with 5 techniques.

If you don't know the entire system how can you make that determination
You seem to be a SJ Northern Shaolin who doesn't really believe in tai chi as a fighting art
Mastering any one technique in a system is a bit short sighted
If you were a boxer with the best uppercut in the world and went into boxing matches with just that
You might win some fights against bums but in the long run it would be your down coming
The entire system of tai chi is not about adding more techniques it's about refining what you have
The solo form in tai chi is like bar work in ballet,necessary but just the basics

wayne hansen wrote:You seem to be a SJ Northern Shaolin who doesn't really believe in tai chi as a fighting art.

I believe Taiji can be a fighting art. But you will need to develop your "bread and butter" moves first. Assume your bread and butter move is X.

In fighting, you will

- create opportunity for your X.
- skip those opportunities that's not suitable for X.

You will make you fight simple. If you want to become a Taiji fighter, you have to train like a fighter. IMO, there is no other way.

wayne hansen wrote:Total mastery is an aim not a determination,if you don't aim for that what is the point

That doesn't really follow on the back of what you wrote earlier regards "... it should be complete mastery of the total art". Who gets to say what it should be? Who makes that determination? It isn't an all-or-nothing issue. Tai chi is tai chi without "complete mastery of the total art" all the way to end of a person's life - whether they achieve "complete mastery of the total art" or not.

wayne hansen wrote:If you are only trying for personal combat there are much quicker methods

Personal Combat isn't a thing you 'try for', and has little to do with martial arts, per se.

wayne hansen wrote:Where does the internal discovery come from

Neutrality Principle.

wayne hanse wrote:What tai chi things do you practice to train the core principles

Neutrality Principle.

we've beat the dead horse on countless threads over many years now, but

- to be good at X, you have to do X. it's pretty much that simple (unless you are training for some kind of emergency preparedness scenarios and you don't actually want to or cannot do X, e.g., CPR, self-defense, etc.)

- doesn't have to be yiquan method, but why not take your IMA or whatever TMA and just train it in some type of MMA (i.e., rulesets) format? That's what the Gracies did with their "Traditional" jiu-jitsu --- which they still used in different grappling formats like BJJ, Judo, no jacket submission tournaments, etc. So taijiquan people can do their (Very weird) ph competitions plus mma formats.

What is neutrality principle
Are there methods for training it
I understand the two words but not your context

everything wrote:why not take your IMA or whatever TMA and just train it in some type of MMA (i.e., rulesets) format?

Agree! Just like what Xu Xiaodong did to that Taiji guy. You ask your training partner to use just punches and tries to knock you down. You use your Taiji skill to deal with it. Try it 15 rounds daily for 2 year. That will be 2 x 15 x 365 = 10,950 rounds of testing.

I would love to learn that with the RSF people. It seems really fun and practical.

wayne hansen wrote:https://www.facebook.com/groups/xingyi/permalink/10155347428001248/

Yea dude, but didn't you notice all the "typical boxing and kickboxing" in there.
tut tut

Is it any wonder TCMA is vanishing up it's own butt with so many of those kind of attitudes around, including the ones Dave Chesser mentions.
He's bang on and the tale has been told so often on forums like this, it's getting older than you Wayne!

Can you call that Hsingyi - what was your comment earlier "just don't call it tai chi.."
So when you cross train in TSD and FMA, you afford yourself the same standard and privelage that you offer other cross trainers ?

Bruce, you've dropped some sweet prose on this thread, so thank you. It's nice to hear from progressive Tai Chi people around here. It's like a breath of fresh air man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmsr_5V62eU&t=159s

not so much about looking like anything rather that what is trained is used and is functional.
If not train until it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH6sxN8 ... freload=10

You gotta have defense. You gotta have at least one weapon. You have to want to fight.

Imo, the tcc approach is not about the shape or speed of movement. The defense rests on being calm enough to give up and follow the opponent. If that's done, the opportunity for counter-attack will always arise (like yin and yang). But, all that will do no good without courage, which is only discovered after trial.

Imo, tcc theory can be applied to any technique. Just because there's no punch to the face in a form doesn't mean that a tcc practitioner can't punch. Well, ok, it'd be possible to say that "it's not tcc." But, there's no reason a tcc practitioner needs to be limited by that.

On a tangent (been looking to bring this up but not in a new thread I guess), there is a good interview with Rickson Gracie in which he basically backhand compliments Sakuraba (the Gracie Hunter).

He claimed Sak was actually not technically good and not a "destroyer" but his best attribute that allowed him to win so many fights including against nearly every Gracie he fought was that he was way calmer than everyone else and very tough. He could be patient, always stay calm, take some bad beating at times, wait for the opponent to make a mistake, then exploit that mistake.

That isn't exactly IMA but the calmness is an attribute that IMA supposedly seeks or develops. The interviewer asked Rickson if that could be developed and he said something like yes, but some people really have it naturally by personality, too.

Steve James wrote:Imo, tcc theory can be applied to any technique. Just because there's no punch to the face in a form doesn't mean that a tcc practitioner can't punch. Well, ok, it'd be possible to say that "it's not tcc." But, there's no reason a tcc practitioner needs to be limited by that.

There is a map for 'punch to the face' in the form. The form is rife with all kinds of movement patterns which directly address hitting.

BKTS can be a right, or left cross for 'punching' slapping, pushing etc, and is accompanied by a downward parry and/or grab-&-pull with the lead hand. It can also be a throw very much like tai-otoshi. Every punch is a throw, every kick is a step - every step is a kick, every throw is a punch. Neutrality Principle!

There are hundreds of hitting methods in the form itself, but hardly anyone practices the movement patterns for such things and it's just as well they don't.

There are no techniques in taiji, but there countless ideas contained in the forms and qigong routines for developing them as a natural response to certain kinds of pressure. The 'teacher's' job is to work up different kinds of pressure and find what works for the 'student'. Most 'teachers' prescribe applications and then proceed to pound square pegs into round holes. It doesn't work like that. There are as many styles of tai chi as there are players, and it's the teacher's job to bring their charges along as though they - the teacher - is learning tai chi for the first time in their life. A little preachy, I know, but that has been my experience in helping others discover their tai chi.